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CaptainSwing

Your Problem Is Just That You Are Poor

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Much of the angst about house prices on this forum is not really about restricted planning rules or the arbitrary access to credit but systematic wage repression since about 1989.

There was a good thread the other day about life in 1994, and most people who were earning then felt that they were richer and freer and could do more with their cash.

I despair for the new generation coming up. They've been brainwashed by the MSM that a house costs hundreds of thousands of pounds, they're a well disciplined unthinking and uncritical labour force because of student debt, and they don't see what they've lost.

The issue at the heart of this forum is the devaluation of lower middle class wage labour. You can't afford a house because you're poor.

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The relative devaluation of labour is inevitable in a period of rapid globailisation. What is not inevitable, but instead a matter of policy, is the medicated inflation in consumer goods and essential living costs which turns what would be steady deflation into grinding pauperisation.

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The relative devaluation of labour is inevitable in a period of rapid globailisation. What is not inevitable, but instead a matter of policy, is the medicated inflation in consumer goods and essential living costs which turns what would be steady deflation into grinding pauperisation.

I think that's right. Also, the Tory/Blair voting lower middles never thought what happened to the industrial working classes would happen to them.

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Can't argue with that. Listening to that fat tosser ferrari mock the idea of the 60k house.

In Northants in the mid 90s you could get a newbuild 4 bed detached for under 60k, a 2/3bed semi for under 40k.

Wage inflation has barely been 50% since then, i doubt materials cost much than 50% more either, particularly with the internet allowing greater transparency.

At the end of my tether looking for a reasonably priced house, i've resorted to looking at plots. I used to work for a housebuilder and still have all the materials schedules and could get all the required materials via the internet for a 1000sq ft 3bed detached for around 20k.

Its all land and LA levies.

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Can't argue with that. Listening to that fat tosser ferrari mock the idea of the 60k house.

In Northants in the mid 90s you could get a newbuild 4 bed detached for under 60k, a 2/3bed semi for under 40k.

Wage inflation has barely been 50% since then, i doubt materials cost much than 50% more either, particularly with the internet allowing greater transparency.

At the end of my tether looking for a reasonably priced house, i've resorted to looking at plots. I used to work for a housebuilder and still have all the materials schedules and could get all the required materials via the internet for a 1000sq ft 3bed detached for around 20k.

Its all land and LA levies.

if you find any let me know ;) , 20k for a 3 bed detached house i might be coming to you too :lol:

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Much of the angst about house prices on this forum is not really about restricted planning rules or the arbitrary access to credit but systematic wage repression since about 1989.

There was a good thread the other day about life in 1994, and most people who were earning then felt that they were richer and freer and could do more with their cash.

I despair for the new generation coming up. They've been brainwashed by the MSM that a house costs hundreds of thousands of pounds, they're a well disciplined unthinking and uncritical labour force because of student debt, and they don't see what they've lost.

The issue at the heart of this forum is the devaluation of lower middle class wage labour. You can't afford a house because you're poor.

It's not just lower middle class wage labour, though. All wage labour is being devalued. Access to decent housing in the UK (at least if you want to own it) is all about wealth -- income is irrelevant.

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The relative devaluation of labour is inevitable in a period of rapid globailisation. What is not inevitable, but instead a matter of policy, is the medicated inflation in consumer goods and essential living costs which turns what would be steady deflation into grinding pauperisation.

Indeed. I don't see much point in moaning about the consequences of globalisation - it's just simple progress of the human race after all. The focus should be on domestic policy.

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The issue at the heart of this forum is the devaluation of lower middle class wage labour. You can't afford a house because you're poor.

No, they can't afford a house because money is too cheap.

If wages doubled, so would house prices, because people could borrow more money. If interest rates returned to sane levels, house prices would collapse, because no-one could afford to borrow 500k for an ex-council flat in Surrey any more.

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Can't argue with that. Listening to that fat tosser ferrari mock the idea of the 60k house.

In Northants in the mid 90s you could get a newbuild 4 bed detached for under 60k, a 2/3bed semi for under 40k.

Wage inflation has barely been 50% since then, i doubt materials cost much than 50% more either, particularly with the internet allowing greater transparency.

At the end of my tether looking for a reasonably priced house, i've resorted to looking at plots. I used to work for a housebuilder and still have all the materials schedules and could get all the required materials via the internet for a 1000sq ft 3bed detached for around 20k.

Its all land and LA levies.

You could buy a detached 3 bed in 95 for £57k.

Or buy a plot of land for £37k and build a 4bed detached 1400 square footer for £47k. In Hampshire. New forest area.

It's just a HPC away. The world didn't end in the mid 90s either. Props for votes can't last forever.

Edited by hans kammler

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Your problem is that you haven't got rich parents to help you out.

Wealth has become a birth lottery, IHT rules etc. ensuring that wealth gets concentrated in the hands of fewer and fewer individuals Victorian style.

And Liblabcon love it, being by and large silver spoon born themselves. Cameron and the Milibot just to name two silver spoon fed adults.

Edited by crashmonitor

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In the UK it's been the period of the great impoverishment through crazy house prices and that has affected all ages except for those owners who intend to stay put or downsize.

It's most apparent for the mainstream young person who doesn't own a house but wants to.

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It's not just lower middle class wage labour, though. All wage labour is being devalued. Access to decent housing in the UK (at least if you want to own it) is all about wealth -- income is irrelevant.

Indeed. I know IT contractors that are working for the same rates , or lower, than they were in 2004/5.

My wife's middle-income salary has progressed by 10% in the same period. No use complaining - you'll be sacked and replaced in the blink of an eye.

By contrast - Houses have powered on to higher levels - give or take a blip or two. Madness.

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The OP is right.

What he doesn't add is the line "and much of that position is not due to you or your skills, but the plans (or ****** ups) or those in power for the past 40 years"

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What he doesn't add is the line "and much of that position is not due to you or your skills, but the plans (or ****** ups) or those in power for the past 40 years"

To be fair, no matter how much the people in power ****** things up, the people not in power keep demanding that there be people in power.

Things won't really improve until people realize that the problem isn't that the wrong people are in power, but that people are in power. When government is rolled back to the minimum possible size, most of the problems will go away.

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The OP is right.

What he doesn't add is the line "and much of that position is not due to you or your skills, but the plans (or ****** ups) or those in power for the past 40 years"

I agree that this is due to deliberate policy or knowingly allowing wage power to decline

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Much of the angst about house prices on this forum is not really about restricted planning rules or the arbitrary access to credit but systematic wage repression since about 1989.

There was a good thread the other day about life in 1994, and most people who were earning then felt that they were richer and freer and could do more with their cash.

I despair for the new generation coming up. They've been brainwashed by the MSM that a house costs hundreds of thousands of pounds, they're a well disciplined unthinking and uncritical labour force because of student debt, and they don't see what they've lost.

The issue at the heart of this forum is the devaluation of lower middle class wage labour. You can't afford a house because you're poor.

I think that this obscures a central point by suggesting that the "devaluation of the lower middle class wage labour" is somehow not of a piece with "arbitrary access to credit".

In terms of the certain goods and services my wage has not been devalued remarkably since 1997, to pick an arbitrary point, but with respect to buying a house in the South East the wage devaluation is game changing, and the principal reason for that disparity is that a tidal wave of credit has been allocated to South East housing, pumping the asset price but doing almost nothing to my wages.

Any explanation of the inflation of an asset price bubble which has been essentially entirely inflated with borrowed money created ex nihilo de novo which neglects changes in the creation and allocation of new credit money can only ever be a partial picture.

In a huge manner of respects, in the context of paying for goods and services with the money I earn, I am not poor, but the amount of money I need to borrow to buy a crap shoebox is, to my mind, ridiculous; I would argue that I am not even poor in regard to access to housing as a service - 30% of my take home pay covers the rent on something that is more than adequate, it's just that I'd need to stump up a deposit which is about 2x my net pay for the year and sign on the line for a debt some 10x to 12x a wage that is twice local median earnings in order to buy the same house.

What is true is that the possibility of buying a house and using it to port some of my present income into the future is a much dodgier prospect to me than it would have been thirty years ago - but that's not the definition of poverty, and I'm not convinced that it is a permanent change, because I don't think that the present configuration of the economy and its consequences for a lot of median income families is democratically sustainable. It's the curse of living in interesting times, but if the endgame is that we become a nation dominated by an electoral college of greying renters with retirement incomes which are inadequate to paying the rent, then I can't see crap houses as a great investment class in which to hold a massive position which was financed with debts taken on at a time when interest rates could go no lower...

[Edit: missing clause inserted to 3rd para]

Edited by bland unsight

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There are many people that on the face of it look very rich....but realistically are they? ;)

If my (small) circles are anything to go by then no they're not. I'm continuously amazed at friends/colleagues who have been in well paid employment for many years who, other than a partially paid for house with tax free capital gains in some instances, don't have a brass razoo to rub together. A former friend who's family seemed to exude wealth compared to mine ended up actually asking me for a loan to get out of a bind. I gave a not insignificant amount over, volunteered to help non-financially, never asked for the money back and was eventually paid back but even so it pretty much ruined the relationship.

IMHO if you want to find the truly wealthy (outside of the super rich who of course can leak wealth) then you need to read The Millionaire Next Door so you can look for the signs.

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I and many people I know earn, net, more than many homeowners, we could afford their mortgage payments and associated bills with disposable income left over. Our wages haven't risen as fast as house prices, though. The 'affordability' of housing has gone out of the window, millions who own couldn't actually afford a 75% mortgage on their property today, but could 10 years ago.

The problem isn't always low wages, just astronomically, illogically, unsustainably-priced housing stock. There isn't enough for 65 million people.

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I think that this obscures a central point by suggesting that the "devaluation of the lower middle class wage labour" is somehow not of a piece with "arbitrary access to credit".

In terms of the certain goods and services my wage has not been devalued remarkably since 1997, to pick an arbitrary point, but with respect to buying a house in the South East the wage devaluation is game changing, and the principal reason for that disparity is that a tidal wave of credit has been allocated to South East housing, pumping the asset price but doing almost nothing to my wages.

Any explanation of the inflation of an asset price bubble which has been essentially entirely inflated with borrowed money created ex nihilo de novo can only ever be a partial picture.

In a huge manner of respects, in the context of paying for goods and services with the money I earn, I am not poor, but the amount of money I need to borrow to buy a crap shoebox is, to my mind, ridiculous; I would argue that I am not even poor in regard to access to housing as a service - 30% of my take home pay covers the rent on something that is more than adequate, it's just that I'd need to stump up a deposit which is about 2x my net pay for the year and sign on the line for a debt some 10x to 12x a wage that is twice local median earnings in order to buy the same house.

What is true is that the possibility of buying a house and using it to port some of my present income into the future is a much dodgier prospect to me than it would have been thirty years ago - but that's not the definition of poverty, and I'm not convinced that it is a permanent change, because I don't think that the present configuration of the economy and its consequences for a lot of median income families is democratically sustainable. It's the curse of living in interesting times, but if the endgame is that we become a nation dominated by an electoral college of greying renters with retirement incomes which are inadequate to paying the rent, then I can't see crap houses as a great investment class in which to hold a massive position which was financed with debts taken on at a time when interest rates could go no lower...

Good post, will consider your careful, nuanced thoughts with interest. Thanks.

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We've very much gone back to "you're either born with money/land or chances are you'll never have it".

The silver spoon smashed socialism.

It was rampant and out of control, but instead of putting the buffers on it (and keeping the bits that did actually benefit us the masses) we let them strip it away completely and replace it with a sort of corporate socialism that benefits the elite.

We're idiots basically.

Even now, I can't bring myself to vote for Milliband (to stop this lot and the Labour party getting captured by the next lot of Blair/middle ground berks) because I've been so well conditioned to hate him and the way he eats sandwiches.

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We've very much gone back to "you're either born with money/land or chances are you'll never have it".

The silver spoon smashed socialism.

It was rampant and out of control, but instead of putting the buffers on it (and keeping the bits that did actually benefit us the masses) we let them strip it away completely and replace it with a sort of corporate socialism that benefits the elite.

We're idiots basically.

Even now, I can't bring myself to vote for Milliband (to stop this lot and the Labour party getting captured by the next lot of Blair/middle ground berks) because I've been so well conditioned to hate him and the way he eats sandwiches.

I only partially agree as sure the odds are stacked against most of us but if we really want to succeed then hard work and a bit DYOR can still provide opportunity IMHO.

I'm not from a rich family, won't see any inheritance/BMOD yet am on for Financial Independence in only a couple of years from now. How? Step 1 is stop being a victim and take responsibility for your own actions. Step 2 is stop listening to all the rubbish spouted by the MSM (who are these days just paid shills trying to get us to buy more stuff) from which it will be surprisingly easy to stop consuming. Step 3 educate yourself and stay educated. Step 4 work very hard and use that education.

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