Britain's Brightest Leaving In Brain Drain And Replaced With Low Skilled Migrants

[wherebee]

But employers and employees pay a LOT more for associated unemployment and healthcare benefits in France. At the upper end of the scale, almost 60% of an employee's gross pay can be handed over to the authorities by the employer/employee before the worker even sees a penny.

By contrast to the UK healthcare is excellent - hugely better than the NHS in my (albeit limited) personal experience. Pensions are still relatively generous and housing is affordable. Whilst purchase prices are inflated inside towns/cities rent levels remain reasonable and rental conditions are excellent. So much so that housing just ceases to be a problem if you're in work. Having recently returned for short stays in both London and Portsmouth, after a long absence from the UK, I found it depressing just how run-down and uncared for everything looks. Rubbish everywhere, obligatory fly-tipping, crumbling high streets, everything converted into flats etc.

The French complain about immigration but it is noticeable how few immigrants are found outside the large cities compared to the UK. I had become so used to French staff in supermarkets, restaurants, garages etc. that it was depressing to realise just how rare it is in the UK to meet anyone other than a foreigner in any kind of service role.

As for differences in education, these are now huge. Despite living only 30mins drive from a major city our son was the first child born outside of France that the local private school (costing a few hundred euros a year) had ever enrolled. This was a relatively minor point however as he (and we) are expected to speak fluent French and fit in with local traditions. There is zero allowance made for the fact his primary language is English. The school is superb with any direct UK equivalent being utterly unaffordable to all but the wealthiest (through either inflated catchment-area property prices/rents or ludicrous private school fees).

UK higher eduction is now a (failing) ponzi scheme that issues degrees on payment. Universities dare not mark-down too many students or they won't attract enough new entrants to the scheme. Hence the almost complete devaluation of UK degrees in a decade (opinions direct from a friend who is a long-suffering University lecturer). In my opinion, the UK higher education sector simply represents a useful QE/helicopter money experiment with the added bonus that some funds may actually be paid back. The French system by comparison is ruthlessly elitist. Perhaps too much so as those who don't excel are left with very limited future options - other than heading to the UK of course...

Almost the entire world faces the same macro-economic issues at the moment. It is, however, facile to pretend every county (even within Europe) is dealing with them in the same way. France has major problems but in facing them, is still struggling to represent the interests of its citizens. The UK powers don't seem to give a f*ck - seemingly only being interested in looting all they can from the rubbish tip before they p*ss off back to their tax havens.

I wonder if that is because the French elite have a very real example from their countries history of the ruling class being dragged out to have their heads cut off when the gap between rich and poor became too much to ignore. For all the weaknesses and faliure of the french political system, I do get the impression that they see 'La Belle France' as something worth defending and protecting.

Looking at the behaviours of the UK MP's of all parties, I do wonder if any of them actually realise what can happen to people in 'power' when the masses get really angry about abuses of power.

[bogbrush]

I edited my post to make it clear that you are an employer complaining about lazy Brits. It's a really depressing meme. No, I'm not cheerful or grateful to do your work at the minimum wage: you can damn well pay me more to reflect my higher levels of human capital compared to immigrants without education.

I agree totally with your post satch about incentives. If you're a bright graduate on £50k in London, that's just enough to pay for (a) room, board, laundry and food, and to put a bit by for a rainy day. It's not enough to buy a property or run a household. Why not leave?

Sadly your desperation to find someone to blame is clouding your vision. Check my posts, I wasn't complaining about anyone, just pointing out that immigrants are out competing Brits through a great deal more than willingness to work cheap. They're, on average, brighter, better educated and more motivated - certainly the E Europeans for sure. That's an attractive picture to an employer like me looking to pay well for bright young things.

Still, keep going with the self delusion. It'll make you feel better. A bit. I love the idea that you have "higher levels of human capital". Hilarious!

[Marshmellow]

I suppose if you said that about blacks vs whites you would be arrested and your business shut down

[@contradevian]

I edited my post to make it clear that you are an employer complaining about lazy Brits. It's a really depressing meme. No, I'm not cheerful or grateful to do your work at the minimum wage: you can damn well pay me more to reflect my higher levels of human capital compared to immigrants without education.

I agree totally with your post satch about incentives. If you're a bright graduate on £50k in London, that's just enough to pay for (a) room, board, laundry and food, and to put a bit by for a rainy day. It's not enough to buy a property or run a household. Why not leave?

I agree it is a very depressing meme and I hope that todays employers get the workforce they deserve

When did apprenticeships get socialised in this bright neo con globalist future? When I was at school you got a job as an apprentice and went to tech on day release, or a few nights at college.

Now it seems 'the State' has to provide them. Once again Britain's bosses having managed to socialise their training costs

[bogbrush]

* Sigh *

I for one run apprenticeships and as yet nobody who's migrated here has entered one. Neither is anything I'm saying racist. I'm simply trying to dispel a silly, self-serving untuth that all migrants bring to the party is cheapness.

In my experience they bring real quality to the workforce, quality that is shared by the best Brits but not by a great many of the rest.

I am acutely aware of the pressure of competition from my own overseas counterparts; we are all competing on an international level now and pretending it's all the fault of somebody else really isn't going to help.

Sorry about that.

Edited February 28, 2015 by bogbrush

[CaptainSwing]

* Sigh *

I am acutely aware of the pressure of competition from my own overseas counterparts; we are all competing on an international level now and pretending it's all the fault of somebody else really isn't going to help.

Sorry about that.

Keep telling yourself that your overseas purchasers place orders with you for reasons other than your artificially low prices and sh*t build quality and the fact you speak English rather than German.

Seriously, why do employers spin this bullsh*t

[@contradevian]

* Sigh *

I for one run apprenticeships and as yet nobody who's migrated here has entered one. Neither is anything I'm saying racist. I'm simply trying to dispel a silly, self-serving untuth that all migrants bring to the party is cheapness.

In my experience they bring real quality to the workforce, quality that is shared by the best Brits but not by a great many of the rest.

I am acutely aware of the pressure of competition from my own overseas counterparts; we are all competing on an international level now and pretending it's all the fault of somebody else really isn't going to help.

Sorry about that.

'I'm not rascist, but .......'

I'd like to know what you make so I can avoid buying it.

If we are going to be discriminated against in our country, in favour of these super beings from abroad, I might just as well buy foreign anyway!

Don't Buy British From British Employers.

[slawek]

Sadly your desperation to find someone to blame is clouding your vision. Check my posts, I wasn't complaining about anyone, just pointing out that immigrants are out competing Brits through a great deal more than willingness to work cheap. They're, on average, brighter, better educated and more motivated - certainly the E Europeans for sure. That's an attractive picture to an employer like me looking to pay well for bright young things.

Still, keep going with the self delusion. It'll make you feel better. A bit. I love the idea that you have "higher levels of human capital". Hilarious!

I wouldn't say that people from other countries are better than Brits. You just meet the brighter, more active part of other country population you can afford to hire. The bright natives have much better options than work for you. Immigrants are disadvantaged and they need to offer more for the same money to be hired.

[LiveinHope]

I wouldn't say that people from other countries are better than Brits. You just meet the brighter, more active part of other country population you can afford to hire. The bright natives have much better options than work for you. Immigrants are disadvantaged and they need to offer more for the same money to be hired.

I would agree with this

The emigrants that immigrate to the UK and seek employment rather than benefits will be the more motivated and brighter from their country; they may also be willing to work for less than their equivalently, bright UK citizens, for several reasons. This can give a false comparison - you are lulled into not comparing like with like.

I would be the first to say that Eastern Europeans are great, but if I employed them cheaply I would be exploiting them as I wouldn't get equivalently qualified UK citizens to work for similar pay given the cost of living.

Likewise, savvy UK Brits will be emigrating to countries where they as immigrants should do better, and experience the same prejudice / or welcome.

Personally, I've just been head hunted to go to China for 5 years. Currently researching whether their bubble is about to pop !

Edited February 28, 2015 by LiveinHope

[Cozza]

I wouldn't say that people from other countries are better than Brits. You just meet the brighter, more active part of other country population you can afford to hire. The bright natives have much better options than work for you. Immigrants are disadvantaged and they need to offer more for the same money to be hired.

My other half used to work in London in a technical profession with a Masters qualification as baseline for entry. On average they reviewed 150 CVs per advertised position. Most from English students were poorly written, contained grammatical and/or spelling errors and often displayed a frightening level of naivety. The foreign applicants on the other hand had obviously honed their applications with the help of a native speaker and were professional in their personal presentation. They invariably got the job. Now I'd love to believe that there were many much better-paid positions out there being filled with superior UK postgrads. Except that, it being an industry in serious decline, there weren't.

There seemed to be a real problem with entitlement from UK graduates - understandable given the high debt levels they had been forced to take on. Sadly the education received had left them woefully unprepared for entry into the "real" world. In London, candidates are always likely to be competing with the best foreign competition. The problem was that the UK's best often fell short by comparison.

[slawek]

My other half used to work in London in a technical profession with a Masters qualification as baseline for entry. On average they reviewed 150 CVs per advertised position. Most from English students were poorly written, contained grammatical and/or spelling errors and often displayed a frightening level of naivety. The foreign applicants on the other hand had obviously honed their applications with the help of a native speaker and were professional in their personal presentation. They invariably got the job. Now I'd love to believe that there were many much better-paid positions out there being filled with superior UK postgrads. Except that, it being an industry in serious decline, there weren't.

There seemed to be a real problem with entitlement from UK graduates - understandable given the high debt levels they had been forced to take on. Sadly the education received had left them woefully unprepared for entry into the "real" world. In London, candidates are always likely to be competing with the best foreign competition. The problem was that the UK's best often fell short by comparison.

Would you expect a bright Brit to apply for a position in an industry in serious decline? The best people in the UK can earn a few hundred thousands after a few years of employment, if that's what motivates them.

[Cozza]

Would you expect a bright Brit to apply for a position in an industry in serious decline? The best connected people in the UK can earn a few hundred thousands after a few years of employment, if that's what motivates them.

There, fixed it for you. The jobs in question were well-paid, for a respected international employer and came with excellent benefits. No shortage of relevant graduates last time anyone looked. They paid my other half extremely well before housing became such a pressing issue that emigration beckoned. Tell me a UK industry (other than BTL) which isn't in terminal decline?

In my humble opinion the UK education system is broken. When my other half graduated from a "Russell Group" University (pretentious sh*te) he was the only student to gain a first class degree on his course. Now around a third of the same course manage the same. Good to know that the average genius level has risen so much in a decade eh?

[Guest]

Why should I be forced into merciless competition with 6 billion people for a tiny scrap of land in an overcrowded city?

We can't all be 'the best'. Why can't our economy supply those of us who are merely mediocre with a half-decent job that pays for a house and a settled life? Second and third place applicants work, too.

On another point, immigrants can underbid native Brits because they can work towards the day they go home where land and houses are cheap. Their living costs while they're in London can't be any lower than mine - I already live in a shared house with European migrants.

Where can I go, to find a job that pays enough that after five or ten years of living like a student I could come back to the UK and buy myself a nice house? I'm already in one of the most expensive places on Earth - there seems to be nowhere that is to London what London is to Warsaw.

The UK education system is awful - too much giving up on the dimmer 50% before you start and not enough for the brightest to do - and terrible value for money - 50k of debt and three or more years of your life for a mostly worthless piece of paper.

[slawek]

There, fixed it for you. The jobs in question were well-paid, for a respected international employer and came with excellent benefits. No shortage of relevant graduates last time anyone looked. They paid my other half extremely well before housing became such a pressing issue that emigration beckoned. Tell me a UK industry (other than BTL) which isn't in terminal decline?

In my humble opinion the UK education system is broken. When my other half graduated from a "Russell Group" University (pretentious sh*te) he was the only student to gain a first class degree on his course. Now around a third of the same course manage the same. Good to know that the average genius level has risen so much in a decade eh?

Financial services are a big brain drainer and you don't have to be connected to earn big money there. There is around 600k (2% of 30mln) people with IQ > 130 active economically in the UK. Only the banks employee around 500k people (many immigrants), universities takes a big chunk as well. I would guess that around 100k-200k is left for the rest of the UK.

A pool of the bright people is rather constant and it has nothing to do with degree levels which could be artificially inflated. Education helps but I can't correct for a lack of talent.

[Guest]

I think there are a great many things more important to business success than IQ. And a great many other jobs clever people would rather be doing than working for a bank.

What shall we do with the 600k people with IQ < 70? They need a job and a house, too.

What percentage of people can afford to buy - using their wages - at current prices? Only bankers?

[slawek]

I think there are a great many things more important to business success than IQ. And a great many other jobs clever people would rather be doing than working for a bank.

What shall we do with the 600k people with IQ < 70? They need a job and a house, too.

What percentage of people can afford to buy - using their wages - at current prices? Only bankers?

I agree IQ is not enough. I used it to show how small a population of bright people is.

Housing problem is a separate issue and mainly caused by the rise of BTL. It is best visible when you look of dropping level owner occupied properties. Ordinary people are out priced by investors. The bubble started late 90s and it hasn't burst yet. 2008 was a good chance but the market was supported by low IR. We need another shock to trigger HPC.

Bankers are also having problems with buying high end properties, they have to compete with the whole world who treats London as a good place to stash spare money.

[Cozza]

Financial services are a big brain drainer and you don't have to be connected to earn big money there. There is around 600k (2% of 30mln) people with IQ > 130 active economically in the UK. Only the banks employee around 500k people (many immigrants), universities takes a big chunk as well. I would guess that around 100k-200k is left for the rest of the UK.

A pool of the bright people is rather constant and it has nothing to do with degree levels which could be artificially inflated. Education helps but I can't correct for a lack of talent.

Financial services...don't have to be connected? Eh? Prior to the dot-com crash those kinds of jobs were available on the milkround to general applicants (PwC, Accenture etc.). Much rarer now and generally requiring 'intern' type experience. In short, lengthy unpaid stints working under one of your public school mates' dads.

Universities pay an absolute pittance with zero job security so unsure why any budding genius would want that for a future.

I agree that intelligence distribution is fairly constant but educating people to interact with the rest of the world is not. Genius does not equate to excellent social/business skills without appropriate training.

Massive grade inflation makes it all but impossible, speaking from personal experience, for employers to select on the basis of academic performance. If everyone has a first class degree, how do you find out who is actually "bright" short of IQ testing every applicant? In practice you either go for a known quantity (your son's public school mate) or someone who stands out from the crowd for other reasons - i.e. bilingual, got off their a*se and emigrated from country of birth and were educated in a system that produces worthwhile qualifications. Very hard for normal, bright Brits to succeed from a working class background when they cannot demonstrate their talents within the existing system.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Cozza

[Big Orange]

The education system is not bad on principle, but certainly outdated, exploited higher education students, and getting sidelined by the Internet, and not suited for the original idea of employment in a workforce (which is self-destructing throughout the Western world). Immigration is short term exploitation followed by long term burden.

[slawek]

Financial services...don't have to be connected? Eh? Prior to the dot-com crash those kinds of jobs were available on the milkround to general applicants (PwC, Accenture etc.). Much rarer now and generally requiring 'intern' type experience. In short, lengthy unpaid stints working under one of your public school mates' dads.

Universities pay an absolute pittance with zero job security so unsure why any budding genius would want that for a future.

I agree that intelligence distribution is fairly constant but educating people to interact with the rest of the world is not. Genius does not equate to excellent social/business skills without appropriate training.

Massive grade inflation makes it all but impossible, speaking from personal experience, for employers to select on the basis of academic performance. If everyone has a first class degree, how do you find out who is actually "bright" short of IQ testing every applicant? In practice you either go for a known quantity (your son's public school mate) or someone who stands out from the crowd for other reasons - i.e. bilingual, got off their a*se and emigrated from country of birth and were educated in a system that produces worthwhile qualifications. Very hard for normal, bright Brits to succeed from a working class background when they cannot demonstrate their talents within the existing system.

Contrary to common believe most people in banks are hired because of their abilities. Banks run paid grad recruitment programs, grads usually work for a few months on some projects and then best get hired. You can also get a job by applying for an advertised job, especially in IT and other support roles. City also have problems with hiring good people, there is a lot immigrants from around the world working there, French, Russian, Chinese, Australians etc. I would say Brits are minority especially in the front office. I think investment banks are more a playground for aggressive, over ambitious, smart young people than a club for public school boys and girls.

As for universities, some people are not driven by money and prefer academic career regardless of its drawbacks.

[CaptainSwing]

That's why the banks and their employees need to be heavily taxed. Brits don't win from hosting a centre of finance. They always threaten to leave for Dubai. We should call their bluff. They can f*** off or pay up.

[wherebee]

I can speak with some experience - I am an immigrant to multiple countries in the past ten years. I get hired because of my skills AND because I have an advantage over the natives - I will put up with crap for a couple of years (pay/living conditions/work life balance/commute) because I do not plan to live there for ever. for example, not planning on putting kids through the schools in Hong Kong means that I do not have to worry about a job that will allow me to pay for that cost. I can also take risks with a job as I know if it all goes tits up I can move easily.

Now, I am at the high end of skills and if even I can see that I am undermining native prospects, and this is in countries that actively penalise foreign workers (hard visa schemes, extra taxes for expats, etc), how much worse is the impact on native brits?

for the employer posting above, I know you think you are being 'fair', but in reality you are getting a cheaper workforce. If there was true and fair globalisation economics (including costing for externalities such as pollution and social costs), and much less movement of labour into the UK, you would be paying more for british labour but able to function as your foreign competitors would not be able to undercut you as easily as today.

[slawek]

That's why the banks and their employees need to be heavily taxed. Brits don't win from hosting a centre of finance. They always threaten to leave for Dubai. We should call their bluff. They can f*** off or pay up.

I think that is unlikely to happen. People running the UK are well aware that City is making UK quite a lot money (around 50-100bln/year) off the foreign investors playing their money in London financial casino. This money offset negative trade balance and allows the UK enjoy better living standards. It kills other industries but changing this would require a painful transition period nobody has guts to start.

Banks are also a source of power for the UK as it allows the UK to influence international financial markets. Not to mention a potential for a nice job after ending a political career.

[CaptainSwing]

I worked abroad for about two years after 2008. I left because I couldn't get an entry position and came back as soon as I could, partly because a relative was seriously unwell. I don't know why I bother, tbh. Employers treat their workers like sh*t. I was very naïve, and I never realised how badly they treat you. Businesses love cheerful Aussies or Poles or Yanks who work here for five years and then leave to go back home. It's natural wastage and allows them to depress the wages to people who've got nowhere to go.

We are such mugs in this country. Our public institutions employ thousands of foreign workers. I couldn't get a job in the French civil service on £50k a year. We need a British social democracy that is protectionist for Brits. You want to base your bank here? With our state on the tab if it's 'too big to fail'? You employ a minimum of 50% managerial Brits.

[porca misèria]

Personally, I've just been head hunted to go to China for 5 years. Currently researching whether their bubble is about to pop !

Good luck to you!

How good are you at picking up a new language (or do you already have that)? I've learned three languages "on the job"[1], but none of them was as alien to me as (any) Chinese.

Or would you be one of those foreigners who lives in a little ghetto and has no life outside an ex-pat community? If so, rather you than me.

[1] OK, in the case of German I already had an O-level. Not that that means anything.

[@contradevian]

I worked abroad for about two years after 2008. I left because I couldn't get an entry position and came back as soon as I could, partly because a relative was seriously unwell. I don't know why I bother, tbh. Employers treat their workers like sh*t. I was very naïve, and I never realised how badly they treat you. Businesses love cheerful Aussies or Poles or Yanks who work here for five years and then leave to go back home. It's natural wastage and allows them to depress the wages to people who've got nowhere to go.

We are such mugs in this country. Our public institutions employ thousands of foreign workers. I couldn't get a job in the French civil service on £50k a year. We need a British social democracy that is protectionist for Brits. You want to base your bank here? With our state on the tab if it's 'too big to fail'? You employ a minimum of 50% managerial Brits.

Yes a Huddersfield business owner was very pleased with his 'graduate' workforce imported from Eastern Europe and the Emirates. Working for 'minimum wage.' Some were very good, but they are rapidly wising up.

The boss was saying 'they are even here at weekends, and late into the evenings.' So I went in to take a look. They were streaming TV over his broadband, listening to music and using his heat.

If the choice you have is working in this rentier hellhole, and earning something, rather than staying at home and probably earning nothing, what you going to do?

Edited March 1, 2015 by aSecureTenant