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libspero

Gaza.. 60% Of Dead Were Women, Children Or Elderly

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Some pretty unpleasant reports coming out from the Gaza attacks..

"An investigation carried out by AP has stated that 508 of 844 victims in air strikes on residential buildings during Israels Operation Protective Edge that unfolded previous summer in Gaza were women, children and elderly people."

"The probe concluded that about 10 percent, or 96, of those killed in the strikes were confirmed or suspected militants. "

That's got to be a pretty poor target to civilian ratio in anyone's book. How it's not reported as a massacre / war crime is unreal.

http://rt.com/news/232355-gaza-civilians-deaths-ap/

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Some pretty unpleasant reports coming out from the Gaza attacks..

"An investigation carried out by AP has stated that 508 of 844 victims in air strikes on residential buildings during Israels Operation Protective Edge that unfolded previous summer in Gaza were women, children and elderly people."

"The probe concluded that about 10 percent, or 96, of those killed in the strikes were confirmed or suspected militants. "

That's got to be a pretty poor target to civilian ratio in anyone's book. How it's not reported as a massacre / war crime is unreal.

http://rt.com/news/232355-gaza-civilians-deaths-ap/

Tell someone who gives a sh*t. My heart bleeds for them (NOT!).

These people, given their first opportunity at something resembling western democracy, freely voted in a bunch of corrupt, racist, religious nutters whose de facto sole election pledge was to achieve the destruction of their next door neighbour!

No one made them vote that way. They were not frogmarched to the voting booths at gunpoint and ordered to vote for Hamas. They chose, in significant numbers, to vote for a leadership that promised them confrontation and war. And so they got it!

Even though they may lack education systems as refined and advanced as we enjoy, and so not be quite so knowledgeable/conversant in the finer details of politics/modern history, they are still possessed of common sense? But they choose not to use it.

They have had literally decades now to come to terms with the fact that, whether they like it or not, their neighbour isn't going to be going anywhere. So the common sense approach is to learn to live with it and make the best of it. Even the IRA came to realise the stupidity of endlessly bombing random people and targets in mainland UK was somehow going to get the Brits to walk out of Ulster.

They were showered with billions of dollars from wealthy sponsor arab countries. They could have used it to improve their lot - build their infrastructure, build a modern economy, educate their young and so forth. Instead they let their irrational jew-hating prejudices squander it on a grand, and insane plan, to build countless multi-mile underground tunnels to burrow into Israeli territory in the dream of an almost overnight 'invasion' of the land.

The average man and woman in Gaza lives in misery whilst the Hamas overlords live it up. Yet the 'innocent' man in the street outnumbers them manifold. They have it in their power to (i) realise they have to learn to coexist with their neighbour, and (ii) rise up and get rid of those in power preaching hate.

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These people, given their first opportunity at something resembling western democracy, freely voted in a bunch of corrupt, racist, religious nutters whose de facto sole election pledge was to achieve the destruction of their next door neighbour!

As opposed to people in western 'democracies' who vote in corrupt servants of banksters, coke-heads, alcoholics, warmongers, pedophiles and other such ilk to lead our 'civilised' western 'democracies'... :rolleyes:

Either way, this changes nothing with regards to the war-crimes Israel has been committing for decades.

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As opposed to people in western 'democracies' who vote in corrupt servants of banksters, coke-heads, alcoholics, warmongers, pedophiles and other such ilk to lead our 'civilised' western 'democracies'... :rolleyes:

Either way, this changes nothing with regards to the war-crimes Israel has been committing for decades.

Such a juvenile and cheap shot.

Yesssssssss (he says a la Jeremy Paxman)........

There IS just a WEEEEEEEEEEE bit of a difference here though.

These assorted misfits you refer to don't (on the whole) spend their entire time pointing to neighbouring countries saying "See them? All your problems are cos of them. We should kill 'em all".

That plus the fact that we don't (yet) get our lives ruled at gunpoint, get summarily executed in the street in front of our neighbours for freely grumbling on the train to work just what a bunch of t*ssers our incumbent government may be, etc

AND, although it may take time, even the greatest and the goodest, for the most part, get cut down to size and thrown in jail IF they commit selfish wrongdoing.

The other major difference is that any mistakes we make in our election choices are done for, mostly, for selfish financial reasons and not for reasons of pure irrational hatred of some particular ethnic/religious group. AND, as history shows, we periodically learn our lessons and change our ways.

Whereas they have been pursuing the same failed policies for decades. At some point even the dopiest of people is going to say "Hey. This aint working. Maybe we should try a different approach.....". Their failure to do so tells me they really must be thick as bricks. In which case I look on their demise as just Darwinism in action,

I could go on highlighting all the glaring differences but I sense it would be a waste of time.

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These assorted misfits you refer to don't (on the whole) spend their entire time pointing to neighbouring countries saying "See them? All your problems are cos of them. We should kill 'em all".

That plus the fact that we don't (yet) get our lives ruled at gunpoint, get summarily executed in the street in front of our neighbours for freely grumbling on the train to work just what a bunch of t*ssers our incumbent government may be, etc

AND, although it may take time, even the greatest and the goodest, for the most part, get cut down to size and thrown in jail IF they commit selfish wrongdoing.

The other major difference is that any mistakes we make in our election choices are done for, mostly, for selfish financial reasons and not for reasons of pure irrational hatred of some particular ethnic/religious group. AND, as history shows, we periodically learn our lessons and change our ways.

Do you really believe the fairy-tales you just told us? :wacko:

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Tell someone who gives a sh*t. My heart bleeds for them (NOT!).

These people, given their first opportunity at something resembling western democracy, freely voted in a bunch of corrupt, racist, religious nutters whose de facto sole election pledge was to achieve the destruction of their next door neighbour!

SNIP

The average man and woman in Gaza lives in misery whilst the Hamas overlords live it up. Yet the 'innocent' man in the street outnumbers them manifold. They have it in their power to (i) realise they have to learn to coexist with their neighbour, and (ii) rise up and get rid of those in power preaching hate.

So, to be clear, you consider this acceptable enough justification to kill women and children (the latter who clearly never voted for anyone or anything).

FFS, Israel are meant to be a first world country.. First world countries aren't supposed to engage in genocide.

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The Palestine/Israeli conflict is a very complicated web.

If you think that any one side or the other (there are several) is entirely innocent or entirely guilty then you really just don't understand the history.

I don't know what the answer will be, so far its looking like it will only end with the complete genocide of one side or the other.

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So, to be clear, you consider this acceptable enough justification to kill women and children (the latter who clearly never voted for anyone or anything).

FFS, Israel are meant to be a first world country.. First world countries aren't supposed to engage in genocide.

No. Certainly not deliberately killing. And I don't see anyone (other than Hamas) suggesting that those particular deaths were deliberate.

What I'm saying is that, from my position/location/situation in life, I really really really really just do not give a sh*t about them - any more than I can bet you that they give a moments thought about us! As tragic as it is, the cold plain facts is that their conflict has absolutely zero significance on the day to day struggles and worries of the man or woman on the Clapham omnibus - and I cannot see why a single drop of British blood is ever spilt getting involved in that part of the world.

We have enough of our own problems here at home to deal with. Charity begins at home. When we no longer have people living rough in the streets, people resorting to food banks to eat, a generation of youth being denied cheap housing, etc etc etc THEN I MAY direct some time and energy to problems further afield that have no impact on my life, my family, my friends, my neighbours or my country as a whole.

We really really really must try to wean ourselves of this endless paternalistic and holier than thou foreign policy that we in the West have towards these countless regions of the world where people are, for the most irrational of reasons, slaughtering each other - and have often been doing so for centuries. Only they can truly stop it. Our interfering, and often taking advantage of the situation and deliberately exploiting them for our own gain at the same time, does us no favours.

I do not care about them, the Hutus vs Tutsi or anyone of a number of 'tribal' based problems in the lesser developed world.

The fact and situation over there, as I stated, is really very simple. Israel is here to stay (or put another way it isn't going to 'go' voluntarily and peacefully). Thus anyone with more than 2 brain cells to rub together would recognise this and make the best of it - or squander your life banging your head against a brick wall.

Israel, despite the fiscal burden it has to carry to cover its defence needs, has managed to transform itself form a third world country in the 1950's into a pretty impressive technological and prosperous nation and without any meaningful significant material resources at its disposal. In that same period how have their neighbouring Arabs spent the time (when they're not killing one another themselves)?

Once, maybe, I could understand their reasoning that they thought they could have stood a chance at defeating Israel militarily. But that time has long gone. Endlessly continuing to try to take on Israel by force, today, is rather like a couple of tiny rodents attacking an elephant at its feet. Sure it might annoy the elephant and even make it sore for awhile, but in the end they're going to get flattened.

IF the Gazans had any brains/common sense and valued their futures they would have long since by now at least tried to adopt "If you can't beat them join them" attitude.

Instead of squandering their limited resources in the form of lobbing home made rockets across the border in the hope they might just kill a few Israelis, they could wake up and small the coffee and say "Hey. Look what those Jews managed to do with that place over the decades (even in the face of endless hostility). You know what? We could do that too". Will take them time, for sure. But there's no reason why they cant do perform the same agricultural miracles, teach their kids in school to become computer programmers, etc.

BUT they won't. Not so long as they allow their prejudices and irrational hatreds drive their thinking processes - and no amount of bleeding hearts or money lavished on them from us is going to change that.

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IF the Gazans had any brains/common sense and valued their futures they would have by now at least tried to adopt "If you can't beat them join them" attitude.

'Joining' the other side is not remotely on offer

20% of the population in Israel is already Arab/Muslim but I don't think you can leave the occupied territories and emigrate to Israel by just filling in a form. And also I suspect the palestinians view those arabs as being like Nazi sympathisers, do you see how its starting to get complicated?

They Arab population in Israel is growing at a rate 0.5% faster than the Jewish, so if that continues in about 100 years they might have a balanced population like they did before WW1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Perceived_demographic_threat

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'Joining' the other side is not remotely on offer

20% of the population in Israel is already Arab/Muslim but I don't think you can leave the occupied territories and emigrate to Israel by just filling in a form. And also I suspect the palestinians view those arabs as being like Nazi sympathisers, do you see how its starting to get complicated?

They Arab population in Israel is growing at a rate 0.5% faster than the Jewish, so if that continues in about 100 years they might have a balanced population like they did before WW1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Perceived_demographic_threat

You still havent fully understood what I am saying. I am not saying they throw in the towel and join with Israel - though I think that would be ideal IF they can manage to bring themselves to coexist in such a way.

I am saying that the Gazans have a degree of independence and are not using it productively to become a properous nation. FFS Gaza is bigger than Monaco or Monte Carlo or even Hong Kong(?). As small as it is they have enough land to farm and use to build on and turn it into a wealthy business enclave if they put their minds to it.

But, corruption of the Hamas leaders aside, they (the Gazans as a whole) won't - because they're so preoccupied and obsessed with destroying their neighbours house than putting their own house in order. AND THAT is the painful uncomfortable truth that all the bleeding heart liberals can't bear to admit - because it is somehow at odds with their world view that all the problems in the world are either our fault or that only we are capable of fixing for them.

As I said. Darwinism in action. They either adapt and survive (and prosper) or they get left by the roadside. End of.

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I don't think that is really possible when they are under constant attack, e.g. look what happened when they built an airport http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat_International_Airport

Nice article documenting the facility. I had not heard about it. But I note not a single mention as to the WHY it was bombed.

Are you saying those nasty horrible Israelis just decided one day for no reason that they would bomb the facility out of operation? Cos that's the sort of thing they do on a whim.

I'm not saying that obliterating it may have been the right decision or right thing to do by the Israelis - but I'll bet there was more to this story than just that "the Israelis bombed it. "

What was the background/were the events leading up to this that made the Israelis feel the need to destroy it? Feel free to post another link that fills in those 'blanks'.

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The Palestine/Israeli conflict is a very complicated web.

If you think that any one side or the other (there are several) is entirely innocent or entirely guilty then you really just don't understand the history.

I don't know what the answer will be, so far its looking like it will only end with the complete genocide of one side or the other.

OR it could be both of them?!

I recall reading once that Israels claimed nuclear arsenal/weapons program is apparently known, internally, as the 'Samson option' (as in Samson and Delilah for those who remember their old testament religious education lessons).

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A new United Nations document says that in most cases where Palestinians have been killed or injured during Israel’s ongoing Gaza campaign, the Israeli army alerted civilians ahead of time who were occupying buildings, that they planned to bomb in Gaza, to leave the premises.

Hamas, however, has officially urged residents to ignore the Israeli warnings to evacuate prior to Air Force air strikes, and, instead, called on them to serve as human shields.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/10/united-nations-most-gaza-casualties-were-warned-by-idf-to-leave-targeted-buildings-in-advance/

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OR it could be both of them?!

I recall reading once that Israels claimed nuclear arsenal/weapons program is apparently known, internally, as the 'Samson option' (as in Samson and Delilah for those who remember their old testament religious education lessons).

Seymour Hersh wrote the book on it. The implication and allegation in the book is that not just the Palestinians would be on the receiving end...

We can still remember the smell of Auschwitz and Treblinka. Next time we’ll take all of you with us.
We are much more important than (Americans) think. We can take the Middle East with us whenever we go.

Israel, of course, hasn't signed up to the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty, and doesn't even admit to possessing nukes, whilst w@nking on endlessly about Iran.

Israel hasn't exactly built itself up whilst maintaining a large military entirely by the sweat of its own brow. It's the largest recipient of US foreign aid and Germany has been paying reparations for donkey's years.

It's also a bit tricky building a place up whilst being subject to a blockade.

If it's fair do's that Palestinians are supposed to get over what happened fifty, seventy years ago, then why not at least equally fair do's that people get over the right to 'return' to a kingdom, 2,000 years+ dead which possibly never existed in the first place?

It's also maybe a tad difficult to get over something that's still going on. Specifically, loony 'settlers' nicking people's land in the here and now

I do agree though that it's absolutely f**k all to do with us

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Ooops, almost forgot to mention...

In arid areas such as the Middle East, and in the absence of abundant surface water resources,
groundwater is a major source for meeting the basic water requirements. Consequently, control over water
resources has become a nascent source of conflict between Israel and its neighbors especially Palestinians.
Israel is currently utilizing more than 80 % of the Palestinian groundwater resources and denying
Palestinians their rightful utilization of the Jordan River. Palestinians are currently allocated 140 MCM per
year for domestic and industrial use leaving the per capita consumption under suppressed demand at an
average of 38 m3/year, which is far below the required standards of water supply. For agriculture,
Palestinians have access to 155 MCM per year which they are using to irrigate around 11 % of their
cultivated lands while Israel is enjoying abundant water to irrigate 62 % of its cultivated land. The current
water allocations came about as a result of fete compli arrangements reflecting the balance of power
rather than internationally formulated agreements
Practically speaking, Israel is not going anywhere. However, this business with the settlers is bang out of order and would best be unf**ked before it goes beyond a point of no return. That's not an opinion I pulled out of my rear end or from the Guardian but influenced a lot by listening to what six former heads of Shin Bet had to say...

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These people, given their first opportunity at something resembling western democracy, freely voted in a bunch of corrupt, racist, religious nutters whose de facto sole election pledge was to achieve the destruction of their next door neighbour!

Oh dear. Serious hatred there. Not to mention ignorance of history.

They had a peace agreement in 1993. That is, until 1995, when the Israelis elected a prime minister who tore up the agreement, aggressively expanded his Lebensraum, and made it clear that nothing short of a Final Solution would satisfy him.

Yet still, for another five or six years the Palestinians kept their side of the agreement. And so long as they did, the outside world just tutted mildly. The whole world sent a message to them, loud and clear: for you, peace does not pay.

Back in 1993, both sides had tremendous international goodwill. And who knows: if the world had followed up on it, tensions might have been defused before a monster emerged from elsewhere in the Islamic world.

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Ooops, almost forgot to mention...

Practically speaking, Israel is not going anywhere. However, this business with the settlers is bang out of order and would best be unf**ked before it goes beyond a point of no return. That's not an opinion I pulled out of my rear end or from the Guardian but influenced a lot by listening to what six former heads of Shin Bet had to say...

I particularly liked the quote "they never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity", which applied to both sides!

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No. Certainly not deliberately killing. And I don't see anyone (other than Hamas) suggesting that those particular deaths were deliberate.

What I'm saying is that, from my position/location/situation in life, I really really really really just do not give a sh*t about them - any more than I can bet you that they give a moments thought about us!

You're talking about a modern army supplied with the latest US weapons Vs some sheep farmers with sticks and stones. Despite which there were still 9 civilians killed for every terrorist, six of which were women or children.

How can that not be deliberate? If not wildly incompetent?

The sooner Netanyahu is out of power the better. Between his land grab "settlement programs" (which ARE internationally recognised/condemned as illegal), his indiscriminate bombardment of civilians in Gaza and his parties plans for the ethnic/religious cleansing of Israel ( http://www.timesofisrael.com/libermans-peace-plan-calls-for-funding-arab-emigration/ ) he's basically an extremist and embarrassment to the civilised world.

The sooner he gets the message (from Obama) the better.. http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/23/politics/netanyahu-obama-snub-sours-relations/

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Yay!! Another thread full of entrenched views to avoid on the great HPC Off-Topic merry-go-round.

You're very welcome to jump in and broaden the debate..

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