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happy_renting

Fracking - Landowner's Rights Extinguished

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Until today, the law of trespass gave land owners protection against drilling for fracking under their property.

Personally, I'm neutral about fracking, but clearly the right to object to trespass under one's land is not a trivial one. Right of access is very valuable to oil and gas companies.

The Tory solution? Extinguish these rights so oil companies can exploit the oil and gas under your land without paying you a penny or you having any right to prevent it.

Basically, state sanctioned theft by the oil companies.

Only a few MPs voted against, and most Labour MPs abstained, the cowards.

What a disgrace.

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Not that I am in favour of this but I believe lead miners in Derbyshire historically (in Elizabethan times) had this right as well, same reason too, the money they made for the crown was more important than land owners rights.

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Just a reminder that you don't own land. You are merely granted certain rights by the Crown.

Yes, and in this case, one of those remaining rights has just been taken away to benefit multinational oil companies, and whoever is in their pocket.

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Just a reminder that you don't own land. You are merely granted certain rights by the Crown.

yes, you are a freeholder.

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Hmm...well, if the fracking was ever shown to incur a cost to a dweller that would be a whole new issue. I'm aware there are people that claim fracking can be a root cause of earth tremors.

We all agree to rules and conventions that we all share this island and we should reward people that add value - and clearly there is value for us all if there is new wealth under our houses that is created through people's innovation and skills.

I think we should be cautious but I'm not currently against it. Slippery slope and all that though.

On a different note, my definition of property is "that which you control". Once your fellow land dwellers can't or are unwilling to fight criminals or law enforcement using other criminals or law enforcement, then it isn't your property no matter what concept you believe in. There's no all-encompassing moral protector for us to appeal to. Of course, many millions of people in history have not lived in a stable system and have been killed which is why civil liberties are so important. If society is happy with this, and I assume they are happy because what goes on underneath your house isn't necessarily a concern, then it isn't your property because no one is willing or able to fight back.

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Under trespass law, where would be the depth at which you don't own the land under your dwelling ?

I thought trespass was a common law and the worst that could happen would be you are bound over to not do it again.

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Under trespass law, where would be the depth at which you don't own the land under your dwelling ?

I suspect this is the issue, from what I know fracking takes place about 2000+ meters below the surface. I'd assume any laws were written at a time when traditional mining was the issue and so depth wasn't really the issue in that anything which could be measured/mined would be close enough to the surface that issues might be likely. Therefore the law possibly stated (or even didn't explicitly state) that it extended to any depth.

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Hmm...well, if the fracking was ever shown to incur a cost to a dweller that would be a whole new issue. I'm aware there are people that claim fracking can be a root cause of earth tremors.

Or possible more than just tremors if you are on a fult line, interesting vid - check out the volume of frack wells / pads, incredible really.

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I thought trespass was a common law and the worst that could happen would be you are bound over to not do it again.

Not any more, in some circumstances it's covered under the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994

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I suspect this is the issue, from what I know fracking takes place about 2000+ meters below the surface. I'd assume any laws were written at a time when traditional mining was the issue and so depth wasn't really the issue in that anything which could be measured/mined would be close enough to the surface that issues might be likely. Therefore the law possibly stated (or even didn't explicitly state) that it extended to any depth.

Yes, the term used is subsoil IIRC. No depth was ever stated, probaby because it was unecessary to do so as you suggest, there was no comprehension of deeper stuff.

Taking it to the conclusion that some do, it would have to be Middle Earth, unless nobody owned the land the other side.

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And did you know planes and helicopters are allowed to fly over it as well. I find that really annoying.

That's covered under the Civil Aviation act of 1982. Technically trespass extends indefinitely up, but aircraft are exempt as long as the height is reasonable. A crane hanging over your property is trespassing.

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Mineral rights and surface rights haven't been the same thing for centuries, and often when the aristocratic land-grabbers sold off the surface rights they kept the mineral rights. Not sure what's different here.

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Not any more, in some circumstances it's covered under the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994

Interesting...but much of the power relates to trespass ON the land.

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Interesting...but much of the power relates to trespass ON the land.

Sorry wasn't suggesting it was necessarily relevant to the topic at hand.

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And did you know planes and helicopters are allowed to fly over it as well. I find that really annoying.

:) Don't think even that was always the (hypothetical) case in terms of landowner rights. I have mixed views on fracking, and don't understand logic of the argument claiming all earth below my house is mine. But those rights and resources also shouldn't be privately claimable by a driller simply because they can.

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Best of luck selling your house in a Fracking zone .....

If you can actually get bricks and mortar insurance ( as far as I'm aware only sun alliance are up for it ,depending on distance) , you will find your premium raised and a fat exemption clause over all things Fracking.....

Just how do you prove that subsequent subsidence or cracks was not caused by Fracking ?

Court fest or what ?

Your house value will plummet just by the mere action of a pp applied for in the vicinity , and the buyer will have mortgage difficulties due to the insurance issues ....

Local House price crash wherever they frack in England

Not to mention the venting health issues if your downwind

A super pad of 40 to 60 wells ,which is now being touted by Caudrilla to reduce pad density) with very long laterals will mean that the pad is in a continual state of Fracking ( wells in rotation throughout its whole extraction life span , that's a major chemical mixing plant within your community.

That's 500 hgvs plus per frack per well multiply by 40~60 and maybe up to 8 tracks per well with diminishing results ( more lorry's)....Spill free ...nah !

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Thats just one pad.....once they get going you will be surrounded by dozens of pads , the gas is everywhere within the shale so they have to drill it every where to extract it , people don't realise the scale of the industrialisation until it happens.

An example of smaller pads with only 16 laterals in Ireland

fracking_proof_6.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHE

Every black dot is a screwed householder.

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Best of luck selling your house in a Fracking zone .....

If you can actually get bricks and mortar insurance ( as far as I'm aware only sun alliance are up for it ,depending on distance) , you will find your premium raised and a fat exemption clause over all things Fracking.....

Just how do you prove that subsequent subsidence or cracks was not caused by Fracking ?

Court fest or what ?

Another example of people losing the plot if they do, nothing I've heard about fracking suggests that the from the earth movement point of view it's worse than living near a motorway or busy railway. The concerns about pollution may have more merit (hard to tell with everyone trying their best to muddy the waters) but I doubt that would affect your house price unless you're still using a well in the back garden for your water supply.

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Its not your doubt that matters , but the insurers !

If they're going on feelings rather than evidence then they're not fit for purpose (so it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest).

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@riedquat....nope... its a risk assessment..

The oil companies did the same thing ,which is why they insisted and got exemption from the clean water act and safe drinking water act in the Us and why there is no indemnity superfund for future problems ..

No indemnity fund here either for the frackers ,environmental clean up costs decades down the line will be left to local councils and tax payers

The future generations "asbestos" issue

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