StuG III Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I don't think this is true at all. The fact that Greens want to replace means-tested benefits with a basic income shows they have a much better understanding of what motivates people to work than the big 3 parties. Oh so they will get rid of housing benefit then will they? WRONG! EC733 Initially, the housing benefit system will remain in place alongside the Citizens' Income and will be extended to cover contributions towards mortgage repayments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 A month. Never realised the details as above - there is no point doing a CI unless you make it standard for nearly all the population. ( you would still require a massively slimmed down public body to cater for cases of those born with serious disabilities etc.. - which could of course lead to a 'creep' towards what we already have just now - still its got to be worth a try - what we have today is beyond a mess) If its around 72 quid a week, and with my crap maths, its roughly 290 quid a month... The amount of savings made on bureaucracy would be enormous...no more welfare to work providers fudging their numbers, no more ATOS, who make ill people work...trouble is that, it would never wash with the Toy electorate..."money for nothing and all that"... Good luck if you can permanently live on 72 quid a week...its a miserable life..but at least you wouldn't have to jump through 20 hoops to get it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPin Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Yes, I believe we can't look back to the 90's and say that's how it may pan out. The world has changed now as it does! I've spoiled my paper for a number of years now in local/general elections. I voted in the scottish referendum and I will vote in the general election. Unsure who to vote for but definitely not for liblabcon. I'm late 50's and been a single parent for the past 16 years and know I am extremely lucky to have a modest little house with no rent or mortgage. Currently I have a 20 year old daughter racking up debt in 3rd year of a 4 year biology course who is independent and full of dreams for her future. It depends on how things pan out whether she will become angry/disillusioned. My son is 21 and not academic and since 16 years old until the past few months he was earning £75pw for more than a 40 hour week. He is an angry young man now. Both voted for the first time in the scottish referendum. I think we are living through a time when more and more people from all walks of life are feeling compelled to vote for alternative parties. The MrPin party is the party of whizdom! I can make Mr Cameron seem like an areosole! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 EC733 Initially, the housing benefit system will remain in place alongside the Citizens' Income and will be extended to cover contributions towards mortgage repayments. That "initially" implies this is a transitional measure but I agree that this doesn't look like a good policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChumpusRex Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Holy cow. Previously I had dismissed the Greens as idealistic but harmless hippies. I had no idea they were so dangerous and insane. Believe me. I've spoken to some people in the green party, there are internal factions which make that seem like harmless chitchat. The radical groups want to see all industry leave the UK, and all people reduced to peasants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuG III Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 That "initially" implies this is a transitional measure but I agree that this doesn't look like a good policy. Yes, initially they are going to pay people's mortgages too. It's utterly barking mad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuG III Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Oh and their Europe policy... EC850 Many of the national level policies outlined here would be difficult if not impossible to pursue while the European Union pursues unsustainable and corporatist economic policies.... EC851 Equally many of the national level policies outlined here could be delegated to a reconstituted 'European Confederation of Regions'...... EC852 While the UK remains a member of the currently constituted EU.... Its just... I don't even... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 If its around 72 quid a week, and with my crap maths, its roughly 290 quid a month... The amount of savings made on bureaucracy would be enormous...no more welfare to work providers fudging their numbers, no more ATOS, who make ill people work...trouble is that, it would never wash with the Toy electorate..."money for nothing and all that"... Good luck if you can permanently live on 72 quid a week...its a miserable life..but at least you wouldn't have to jump through 20 hoops to get it.. Without housing benefit - house prices and rents would collapse - the very reason those in charge will do their best to see it never happens. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Never knew about the mortgage contribution aspect as above - that truly is nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Funny party the Greens, couldn't support the eco-lunacy and the open-borders stuff which is not in our national interest. Yet I like the idea of a Citizens Income withdrawn as income increases. Removing the yoke of the state and freeing people to exist without the fear of repercussions (from a pernicious state) could be liberating. There is a whole parasitic industry gorging itself on the back of the poor and workless. Also feel that with technological advances, the jobs market will need to adapt - something politicians are not willing to entertain currently, preferring dogma. Will be interesting to see the numbers and how the Swiss get on. Long term we have got to deal with housing costs and rentierism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuG III Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Never knew about the mortgage contribution aspect as above - that truly is nuts. No offence intended, but actually reading party policies can be quite revealing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Interesting read (blog) here on Basic Income and some interesting comments: http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2015/01/basic-income-some-issues.html Give everyone including the rich a basic income.... Make sure taxes are progressive enough that no one has a cliff effect where all of the sudden all BI disappears. It should disappear at some comfortable (food, shelter, medical care) level. The BI, of course, is the entrepreneur society allowance. Remove fear of losing subsistence and you release people's ability to vote with their feet, away from dead end stupid jobs into new creative enterprises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_northshore_* Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 EC733 Initially, the housing benefit system will remain in place alongside the Citizens' Income and will be extended to cover contributions towards mortgage repayments. If you're going to quote a policy, at least quote the whole thing: EC733 Initially, the housing benefit system will remain in place alongside the Citizens' Income and will be extended to cover contributions towards mortgage repayments (see HO602). This will subsequently be reviewed to establish how housing benefit could be incorporated into the Citizen's Income, taking into account the differences in housing costs between different parts of the country and different types of housing. HO602 In the short term the Citizens' Income (see EC730 and subsequently) will provide for a proportion of housing costs. To allow for regional variations, this will be supplemented by a specific housing benefit. This will be payable to all, regardless of their forms of tenure. It will be means tested, and related to rent or mortgage repayments... ...HO607. As an immediate response to concerns about the fairness of Council Tax, and to the growing housing crisis (particularly in London and the South East), Greens support the following modifications to Council Tax/National Non-Domestic Rates (NNDR) as a transitional move towards the introduction of Land Value Taxation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/sep/16/land-value-tax-revamp While most ordinary families would gain from a land tax, it is a scary prospect for older middle income households that have benefited hugely from the house price boom of the last 20 years. For some it could prove an extra burden. But their children would find it easier to afford a home. Edited January 28, 2015 by Dave Beans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/sep/16/land-value-tax-revamp While most ordinary families would gain from a land tax, it is a scary prospect for older middle income households that have benefited hugely from the house price boom of the last 20 years. For some it could prove an extra burden. But their children would find it easier to afford a home. I didn't know this document existed... http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN06558.pdf Page 14... The Green Party MP Caroline Lucas has also made the case for an LVT. Ms Lucas presented a Private Members Bill in the 2012-13 Session to require a Government-feasibility study, though this did not secure a second reading debate. The Member set out her case to the House in the debates on the summer adjournment in July 2012: One of the great advantages of a land value tax is that it would be very hard to dodge, avoid or evade. It would encourage more efficient and sustainable use of land and avoid distorting business behaviour, as our current business rates do. Business rates are levied as a percentage of the estimated rental value of the property, and the effect of that is to skew economic activity away from property-intensive production and to create a perverse incentive not to use or properly develop brownfield land first. Crucially, an LVT could discourage boom and bust in property, giving incentives against disproportionate amounts of capital being tied up in property and unsustainable accumulation of debt … Edited January 28, 2015 by Dave Beans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Interesting read (blog) here on Basic Income and some interesting comments: http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2015/01/basic-income-some-issues.html A basic income that is not paid to people who have a certain amount of income/wealth is not a basic income, it's a means-tested benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19 year mortgage 8itch Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Where were the loons of Syriza 5 years ago? Besides, if you think the main parties have a better chance of sorting themselves out than the Greens have of moderating then you're just as much a loon. Status Quo, the HPC house band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahBell Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 HO602 In the short term the Citizens' Income (see EC730 and subsequently) will provide for a proportion of housing costs. To allow for regional variations, this will be supplemented by a specific housing benefit. This will be payable to all, regardless of their forms of tenure. It will be means tested, and related to rent or mortgage repayments... Meaning the people who want to live in London can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 A basic income that is not paid to people who have a certain amount of income/wealth is not a basic income, it's a means-tested benefit. That's the whole point, there is no apparatus in place to means test it. You then need to use the tax system to compensate for it at a higher level. Otherwise it would not be affordable - we are not some oil rich state! Funnily enough pre-2010 when there was talk of Universal Benefit I naively thought that it was a step in this direction ( doublethink ). I was at a meeting yesterday when it came out - according to an agency dealing with those out of work - that volunteering is/might be excluded from the new DWP contract commitment. It's impact on the voluntary sector would be significant; but it is a sign that they (IDS etc,.) just don't get it and really intend to screw people down (35 hours/week job searching - as soul destroying as it gets). A system set up for people to fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_northshore_* Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Meaning the people who want to live in London can. Their economic policies are frankly revolutionary to the point of systemic overhaul, and re. your London concern would probably adjust prices to near build cost + generally lower location value anyway. Very unlikely and with their own downsides, but it's about time people (particularly the young) got to better understand the way the world works even if it just gets the conversation going. The sort of stuff debated here. Three of my main hopes are for a LVT, CI and banking overhaul. They happen to propose them, so I'll probably bin former Conservative vote that appears to guarantee zero change. If it's naive to hope for change that moves beyond alleged loony bin debate to electorate considerations I'm fine with that. eg: EC664 A Green Government will therefore develop and implement a programme of banking reform based on the following principles: a) All national currency (both in cash and electronic form) will be created, free of any associated debt, by a National Monetary Authority (NMA) that is accountable to Parliament; b ) The 1844 Bank Charter Act will be updated to prohibit banks from creating national currency in the form of electronic credit. To finance their lending, investment or proprietary trading activities, banks will have to borrow or raise the necessary national currency from savers and investors; c) The NMA will be mandated by law to manage the stock of national currency so that it is sufficient to support full employment, while avoiding general inflation in prices, and taking into account the development of local currencies (Ref. paragraph EC678)... EC666 Banks should be required to limit their role to taking deposits and making loans that facilitate economic activity. We would immediately legislate to separate retail and investment banking. Institutions would not be permitted to operate in both markets simultaneously. Retail banks should be required to limit their role to taking deposits and making loans that facilitate economic activity. Investment banks should take the form of partnerships rather than limited companies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuG III Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 If you're going to quote a policy, at least quote the whole thing: EC733 Initially, the housing benefit system will remain in place alongside the Citizens' Income and will be extended to cover contributions towards mortgage repayments (see HO602). This will subsequently be reviewed to establish how housing benefit could be incorporated into the Citizen's Income, taking into account the differences in housing costs between different parts of the country and different types of housing. HO602 In the short term the Citizens' Income (see EC730 and subsequently) will provide for a proportion of housing costs. To allow for regional variations, this will be supplemented by a specific housing benefit. This will be payable to all, regardless of their forms of tenure. It will be means tested, and related to rent or mortgage repayments... ...HO607. As an immediate response to concerns about the fairness of Council Tax, and to the growing housing crisis (particularly in London and the South East), Greens support the following modifications to Council Tax/National Non-Domestic Rates (NNDR) as a transitional move towards the introduction of Land Value Taxation... Why? There is still going to be a means tested housing benefit and they are expanding it to cover mortgages. Meanwhile, the citizen's income policy is falling apart at the seams http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/27/green-party-citizens-income-policy-hits-poor The Citizen’s Income Trust (CIT), which has given advice to the Green party and been repeatedly cited by the Greens, has modelled its scheme and discovered it would mean 35.15% of households would be losers, with many of the biggest losers among the poorest households. So much for no one receiving less. detailed costings for the policy will not be available in the manifesto in March. Total farce. Its their flagship policy and they haven't even figured out if they can make it work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuG III Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Their economic policies are frankly revolutionary to the point of systemic overhaul Their policies are revolutionary to the point of lunacy. They want to pay everyone in the entire country £71 a week, Cut us off from all our military and economic allies, and beat our swords into plougshares, while throwing our borders open to absolutely everyone. Just how do you think that is going to work out? I can almost guarantee a foreign military intervention within a single Green party government. it's about time people (particularly the young) got to better understand the way the world work Its about time the Green party learns how the world works. We cant live like Irish peasants in 1845 while sitting around a campfire singing Kumbahyah. Edited January 28, 2015 by StuG III Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Believe me. I've spoken to some people in the green party, there are internal factions which make that seem like harmless chitchat. or even harmless Kitkat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_northshore_* Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Why? There is still going to be a means tested housing benefit and they are expanding it to cover mortgages. Meanwhile, the citizen's income policy is falling apart at the seams http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/27/green-party-citizens-income-policy-hits-poor So much for no one receiving less. Total farce. Its their flagship policy and they haven't even figured out if they can make it work. Because you only quoted bits of it. I've never voted green but it doesn't seem any more farcical than the Conservative's uncosted plans and promises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuG III Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Because you only quoted bits of it. I've never voted green but it doesn't seem any more farcical than the Conservative's uncosted plans and promises. I quoted the relevant bit of it. The bit where it said there were still going to be means tested benefits including housing benefit which would be extended to cover mortgage payments.I'm not going to reproduce their entire website. Honestly, if you don't see how the green's policies are farcical then you quite obviously haven't read them. Seriously, what effect do you think its going to have to leave the EU, EFTA, EEA, NATO, disband the army, make it legal to support terrorism, abandon all border controls, shut down all the nuclear power stations, induce a state of perpetual recession, destroy the financial sector, destroy the arms industry, destroy whats left of the pension industry, and levy taxes on Christmas presents, But hey, at least they are going to test incoming flights for diseases. Seriously, how much LSD did they take before coming up with that lot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_northshore_* Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Their policies are revolutionary to the point of lunacy. They want to pay everyone in the entire country £71 a week, Cut us off from all our military and economic allies, and beat our swords into plougshares, while throwing our borders open to absolutely everyone. Just how do you think that is going to work out? I can almost guarantee a foreign military intervention within a single Green party government. Its about time the Green party learns how the world works. We cant live like Irish peasants in 1845 while sitting around a campfire singing Kumbahyah. Well we both know they're not going to happen anyway. At least for some time, but one can hope for change and perhaps a meeting in the middle. As inferred, there comes a point when only so much more energy can be wasted pretend-ranting on forums and it's time to expand the options; see what people think of alternatives to assumed norms on the machinations of government and private interests. I'm far more concerned about the future of our rentier state, funding an offence force and maintaining a financial system that gifts immense power to the special money flowers than I am about the pragmatics in financial modelling of a LVT/CI, hoorah interventionism and 21st century borders. I appreciate you enjoy the campfire narrative but I'm tired of everybody using future risks as an excuse for current stasis. I want fundamental change and willing to take risks to get there whatever the party, even if it might come with a sing-a-long and regrets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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