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Saving For a Space Ship

"there's Now 8 Million Tiny House Blogs"

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In the latest vid from Kirsten Dirksen, I was struck by what the Tiny house guru said .

"There's now 8 million tiny house blogs"

I am impressed by the speed of growth & size of the movement

As many shrinking new build house rooms are approaching tiny house sizes, perhaps we should cut to the chase & just build a tiny house in your mum or friends garden.
If someone objects, you unbolt it & move it somewhere else. At least it teaches people basic construction & re-use skills
When the gov's can kicking ends & the housing benefit & working tax credit run out, there will be no money to pay the banking & landlord middle men, so we might as well start building tiny houses, so many have somewhere to live when that happens.
It also looks like so much fun
Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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With the "right to build" policy coming through I expect some of these to pop up :rolleyes:

Why wait?

As hpc poster VMR says .,.

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/196930-will-the-young-poor-be-living-in-shipping-containers/page-3

You can erect an outbuilding but for incidental purposes only, not independent living. You won't get permission to use it as a dwelling from day one.

The best process I have come across to create an independent dwelling is.

1. Erect outbuilding under permitted development. Initial use must be incidental, not residential (or even simply extra living space). Legal certificates can be applied for, easy enough to get (I have one).

2. Use it for a few years for that use

3. Get permission to convert for use as a dependent annexe.

4. Use it for a few more years

5. Get permission to use it as an independent dwelling

Most of my neighbours have outbuildings and are at various stages in the above process.

Two others just build and tell the council to p-off, ignoring enforcement notices and outspending the council lawyers.

Edit: just a thought, but building a tiny house / tree house for them or the kids may help relieve some of pent up the frustration & stress a lot of priced out hpc'ers feel .

Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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George Clarke's Amazing Places TV series (Channel 4) is really good. Some fascinating projects. For work, leisure, fun and living. He talks a lot about permitted development.

Of course, the growth in tiny living spaces might just indicate a bigger problem. The resourcefulness of individuals and 'unfettered' market forces always finds a way.

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Self build shanty towns, the government must be laughing all the way to the BTL conference.

Exactly.

Just how will families be able to manage in the UK. Our weather makes these kinds of dwelling really just survival spaces.

It grates on me that George Clarke advocates others live in these whilst his family have a proper home. It'd be a better series if he moved his family in and sold his old home.

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Self build shanty towns, the government must be laughing all the way to the BTL conference.

Would be funny if it wasn't so horribly true. They obviously haven't realised yet that the smaller the living space the less stuff people will feel the need to buy?

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George Clarke's Amazing Places TV series (Channel 4) is really good. Some fascinating projects. For work, leisure, fun and living. He talks a lot about permitted development.

Of course, the growth in tiny living spaces might just indicate a bigger problem. The resourcefulness of individuals and 'unfettered' market forces always finds a way.

Self build shanty towns, the government must be laughing all the way to the BTL conference.

You need to have a look at the 8 million blogs on tiny houses, most are very well built, some costing many £10,000. Often if you build it yourself, you are more likey to ma The poor state of workmanship on new build houses is well known on hpc.

Demonising tiny houses / self builds as shantys, only serves to perpetuate the meme of getting £150K + in debt as a mortgage slave to the banks.

The VI corps / house builders love conformist architecture that all looks the same, so they produce nice little worker drones to boost their profits.

The reality of wage deflation and the job insecurity caused by globalisation, means the 25 yr mortgage is increasingly not possible for the younger groups, so alternatives must be explored & found for them to adapt & survive

Exactly.

Just how will families be able to manage in the UK. Our weather makes these kinds of dwelling really just survival spaces.

It grates on me that George Clarke advocates others live in these whilst his family have a proper home. It'd be a better series if he moved his family in and sold his old home.

The Uk's weather is indeed a vital factor in the design.

I agree that Amazing Spaces , while having some very interesting structures, (I liked the rail carriage conversion the other week) also has some dubious reports on middle class folks amusing themselves. But it is an entertainment show designed to make you sit there & watch the ads in between..

Would be funny if it wasn't so horribly true. They obviously haven't realised yet that the smaller the living space the less stuff people will feel the need to buy?

Hidden consequence of technology. Perhaps partly why amazon / google etc, have such a rush to digitised sales

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I've been thinking lately of moving to a shack in the woods and working part-time over the Internet. With so much going digital these days, there's no need for lots of space to store stuff; for example, I have a few hundred books on my book shelves, and a few thousand on my Android tablet which takes up about 0.001% of the space.

Add in a future 3D printer with another twenty years of technological improvements, and you'd soon be pretty much sorted for most things. Build what you need, when you need it, and dismantle it when you're done.

Edited by MarkG

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Why wait?

As hpc poster VMR says .,.

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/196930-will-the-young-poor-be-living-in-shipping-containers/page-3

Edit: just a thought, but building a tiny house / tree house for them or the kids may help relieve some of pent up the frustration & stress a lot of priced out hpc'ers feel .

The problem is that VMR is well over 40 years old and owns a house.

What do you suggest for those well under 40 and renting?

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Here's a tip:

Build several tiny houses next to each other then knock the walls through.

Like the Beatles in 'Help'?

Seriously though, this is one good way of sticking two fingers up to property/debt slavery. Buy a caravan for a couple of thousand quid. Pay a small rent to someone you know who's land rich and cash poor. When the council busybodies come sniffing round, ignore them until things get too serious, then up sticks and leave. I'm sure some kind of website based on the Air BnB model could work for renting out land to caravanners.

Yes, there's an argument to say the powers that be would be laughing at our shanty towns. But which is worse - living almost rent and debt free in a caravan, or selling one's self to a lifetime of debt servitude to buy a pile of bricks in some jerry built 'starter home'?

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The problem is that VMR is well over 40 years old and owns a house.

What do you suggest for those well under 40 and renting?

1. Team up with someone like VMR, or family / friend & live in a small building on their land

2. Take on a license on a small commercial property, again perhaps sharing with a friend & live their discreetly .

It may help to stay with friends for a night or 2 a week (contribute to their rent )

3. Care-taking / House sitting (harder to get on list for this these days & some charge £30 -50 a week rent )

4. Talk to landlords or security firms about increasing crime & ask if they want anyone to occupy a vacant building, if asked, officially you are "night watchman" & not asleep

5. Convert a garage

6. Motor home

7. Co-Housing

8. Communes

9. Sharing a house with a pensioner (forget what this is called) & caring for them & keeping them company

sometimes, in exchange for low rent

10. Squatting commercial property

11, Caravan

12. Housing hidden in agricultural site (do a deal with farmer)

Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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Agricultural rents are very cheap compared to residential (somewhere circa £100 per acre per annum IIRC) so maybe it would makes sense to rent a few acres in different locales, grow a few low input crops and move around from site to site. Why bother being economically active when it gets you nothing and nowhere? May as well just drop out and let the whole thing go hang.

This is of course entirely symptomatic of how scr*wed we all are by the current disparity between house prices and incomes.

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See my post on tonights 'Inside Out' presented by a letting agent no less

The future, an 11.4 square metre hotel room if you are lucky.

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1. Team up with someone like VMR, or family / friend & live in a small building on their land

2. Take on a license on a small commercial property, again perhaps sharing with a friend & live their discreetly .

It may help to stay with friends for a night or 2 a week (contribute to their rent )

3. Care-taking / House sitting (harder to get on list for this these days & some charge £30 -50 a week rent )

4. Talk to landlords or security firms about increasing crime & ask if they want anyone to occupy a vacant building, if asked, officially you are "night watchman" & not asleep

5. Convert a garage

6. Motor home

7. Co-Housing

8. Communes

9. Sharing a house with a pensioner (forget what this is called) & caring for them & keeping them company

sometimes, in exchange for low rent

10. Squatting commercial property

11, Caravan

12. Housing hidden in agricultural site (do a deal with farmer)

I suppose we could live in a garage, there's only 4 of us.

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I suppose we could live in a garage, there's only 4 of us.

The fact that this kind of thing is even discussed has got to be an indicator that we're at the market top and about to crash, right? "New paradigm" and all that...

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Agricultural rents are very cheap compared to residential (somewhere circa £100 per acre per annum IIRC) so maybe it would makes sense to rent a few acres in different locales, grow a few low input crops and move around from site to site. Why bother being economically active when it gets you nothing and nowhere? May as well just drop out and let the whole thing go hang.

This is of course entirely symptomatic of how scr*wed we all are by the current disparity between house prices and incomes.

I'm assuming you mean live in a caravan on agricultural land? Councils are likely to sniff that out pretty quickly. I think the only way to do it is to take advantage of those who already have land. For example, if you lived in a caravan in a large rural garden that wasn't overlooked by nosey neighbours, I think it would be quite a while before any council worked out you were living there.

Even if they did, they would have to prove (not sure how they'd do it, I would imagine it would involve surveillance) you were not just lodging with the householder and using the caravan for occasional sleeping (which is permitted up to a certain amount of days I believe). If you were really paranoid you could camouflage the roof of the caravan to make it less obvious to councils using Google Earth/spotter planes to check for illegal buildings (it's been done in Wales, apparently).

Even if they did suss you out, they would have to go through various legal channels before anything could be done; by which time you just have to up and find someone else to camp out with.

It does of course depend on a supply of willing landlords, which is why I think some kind of air bnb site could work. I know this does happen with boat moorings; they are advertised as non-residential but apparently if you speak to some owners they will let you live there full time unofficially.

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I'm assuming you mean live in a caravan on agricultural land? Councils are likely to sniff that out pretty quickly. I think the only way to do it is to take advantage of those who already have land. For example, if you lived in a caravan in a large rural garden that wasn't overlooked by nosey neighbours, I think it would be quite a while before any council worked out you were living there.

AFAIK it's still legal to live in temporary accommodation on agricultural land for the purposes of seasonal agricultural work so what I meant was that it's hypothetically possible to rent separate sites with different crops that require working at different types of year (and little maintenance in between) and move around from one to the other at interval. Say someone could (maybe? not sure if agricultural rents scale with plot size or whether such small plots are available in practice) rent six separate one acre sites for around £600 per year and spend about 60 days on each site over the course of the year on an entirely legal basis, assuming that they worked the land and each individual stay was of limited duration, with no need to muck about trying to hide from anyone.

I can see the appeal of just putting two fingers up to the current economic situation and living a subsistence level lifestyle, but then I don't have any responsibilities or anyone particularly depending on me economically so I can afford to contemplate dropping out. For most people, including myself and probably most of the people who have already gone down the tiny homes route, a HPC would be a far better solution all round.

Edit: not trying to imply that this kind of movement is anti-HPC, if anything it reduces the pool of willing buyers so is a pro-HPC force, just that it's depressing when this kind of thing starts looking like an attractive option...

Edited by Neverwhere

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Think the caravan in a field is likely to be sniffed out by local NIMBY's. Many would put the old Stasi to shame and would report their own family in order to preserve the sacred green spaces of the UK.

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The fact that this kind of thing is even discussed has got to be an indicator that we're at the market top and about to crash, right? "New paradigm" and all that...

If you had an ounce of sense you would.

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? Would what? Think the tiny home movement is a market top/crash indicator? Or drop out and join them?

You would think things are about as bad as it can get.

Obviously they can easily get worse.

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Think the caravan in a field is likely to be sniffed out by local NIMBY's. Many would put the old Stasi to shame and would report their own family in order to preserve the sacred green spaces of the UK.

Absolutely, I don't think that people are generally getting away with this kind of thing unless they can point to some kind of permission to stay and these are all temporary recreational (i.e. very temporary) or temporary agricultural work AFAIK.

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