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Saving For a Space Ship

Ebay Eu Vat Changes 1St Jan From Lux To Uk - Online Tax Tightening ?

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Just had an email from ebay stating the changes .

http://sellercentre.ebay.co.uk/eu-vat-legislation-changes?clk_rvr_id=725589338397

It's all a bit confusing, but appears like corps avoiding tax by being in Tax havens (Lux) may be changing, as it has to be charged at rate where sellers /customers are based (in Uk 20% now not 15% as in Lux) .

IMO, It also looks like EU / Hmrc maybe leaning on ebay to check biz credentials & tighten up on private sellers who are really biz

Are Ebay holding onto the Vat for Hmrc instead of sellers getting it ?

If you’re not a business seller, eBay will charge VAT at the rate of the country where you’re based (for example 20% for the UK) rather than the rate of the country where eBay is based (15% for Luxembourg up until 31 December).

How does this affect me?

All business sellers based in the UK will be invoiced excluding VAT (net pricing) from 1 January. For sellers who have already registered a VAT ID with eBay, they will not notice any change.

Good comments here..

http://tamebay.com/2014/11/ebay-eu-vat-changes-from-1st-jan-2015.html

Ebay sellers forum threads

New VAT charging from January 1st

http://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/Business-Seller-Board/New-VAT-charging-from-January-1st/m-p/3966335#U3966335

but if you're a small business below the threshold ebay will now add 20% instead of 15% to their bill. So effectively we are paying another 5% and its another nail in the coffin for smaller sellers. I've already changed my business model to higher value items and am clearing old stock.

52t-bird wrote:

Just spoke to CS and for one they consider all businesses should be VAT rated!
Basically the email i recieved is a convoluted smoke screen for the simple fact all sellers other than those VAT registered will pay 20% VAT from January 1st.

But 20% on what? At present the fee we pay includes 15% VAT (Luxembourg rate).

So, using ebay's example, a fee listed at £1 means that at present we pay ebay £1 of which 87p is the fee and 13p is VAT.

But what is unclear is what we will be paying in January: will it be 87p + 20% VAT = £1.04

OR £1 + 20% VAT = £1.20

OR £1 including 20% VAT = £1 (where 83p is the fee and 17p is the VAT)?

Years ago, ebay weren't charging VAT on fees. When they had to start doing this there was a huge outcry as people thought their fees were going up. But what actually happened was the fees stayed the same but users were notified that this included VAT. So the actual amount paid to ebay was unchanged but a portion of it was now VAT (the third option above).......

in reply to the-naked-eye

on ‎05-11-2014 09:47 AM

I agree it's not clear at all. They specifically say that all business sellers will be charge fees net VAT. But I would have thought that those not VAT registered would have paid the VAT on fees. I imagine most of us aren't VAT registered. Also saw this on their FAQ's which seems to imply that they will ask for other evidence of being a business sellet if not VAT registered. Clear as mud!

"Why is eBay asking me to register a VAT ID, when business sellers based in the UK will be charged net pricing from 1 January 2015 regardless of having one registered?
Quote from ebay email to sellers

A VAT ID is the best evidence that you are a business, and would allow eBay to charge business sellers net fees over the long term.
Without your VAT ID on file we may need to contact you for alternative evidence that you are a business."

EU VAT LEGISLATION CHANGES FOR ELECTRONIC SERVICES

http://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/Seller-Central/EU-VAT-LEGISLATION-CHANGES-FOR-ELECTRONIC-SERVICES/m-p/3969079#U3969079

The change means that eBay will now be paying UK VAT to the Treasury on sales it makes in the UK to private customers.

Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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This is an EU wide change to VAT regulations, and affects anyone selling e-services to people in the EU.

Basically, if you do so, you may have to register for VAT (even if you're under the threshold for VAT registration) and pay VAT to the tax authority of where the customer is located.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/posmoss/index.htm?WT.ac=VAT_POSjan

It's not so bad for ebay sellers selling physical goods, because it's ebay who have to get the VAT right on their fees. It's a major headache for anyone selling digital goods.

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This is an EU wide change to VAT regulations, and affects anyone selling e-services to people in the EU.

Basically, if you do so, you may have to register for VAT (even if you're under the threshold for VAT registration) and pay VAT to the tax authority of where the customer is located.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/posmoss/index.htm?WT.ac=VAT_POSjan

It's not so bad for ebay sellers selling physical goods, because it's ebay who have to get the VAT right on their fees. It's a major headache for anyone selling digital goods.

If small sellers like me, do have to register for vat to sell to EU countries, that's a disaster for them.

I imagine many will just give up selling abroad.

It smells of more trade for the big fish cartels, by killing the little fish via lobbying EU for change

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Guest UK Debt Slave

If small sellers like me, do have to register for vat to sell to EU countries, that's a disaster for them.

I imagine many will just give up selling abroad.

It smells of more trade for the big fish cartels, by killing the little fish via lobbying EU for change

Of course

Can't have little guy being prosperous or doing well for him/herself and family can they? ;)

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It smells of more trade for the big fish cartels, by killing the little fish via lobbying EU for change

A variation of regulatory capture, which is rife in the EU and especially the UK.

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If small sellers like me, do have to register for vat to sell to EU countries, that's a disaster for them.

I imagine many will just give up selling abroad.

I guess it depends on what you're selling. I'm not sure if it affects physical goods (I'm still looking into that), but it definitely affects sale of digital goods such as ebooks, software, downloadable stuff etc.

It smells of more trade for the big fish cartels, by killing the little fish via lobbying EU for change

Oh I agree, which is why big corporations love the EU and threaten to kill off jobs every time there's a whiff of talk of leaving it.

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http://www.amazombies.co.uk/index.php/topic,2549.0.html

There's a bit in the Times this morning (front page) about well-advanced government plans to 'verify' everyone, who can do it online, (using a range of private providers to avoid the charge it's an 'ID card by the back door,' though I'm not hugely convinced) so they can access a wide range of government services.

It's probably worth mentioning, that sellers have been having nightmares with amazon.co.uk id verification. This sometimes requires passports etc

forum threads in last yr

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=amazon+forum+id+verification&num=100&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHFX_en-GBGB455GB455&espv=2&source=lnt&tbs=qdr:y&sa=X&ei=snlaVIrQD_TY7AbE0YCAAQ&ved=0CBYQpwU&biw=1240&bih=643

I also went to register a .uk domain name the other day & got this email requiring me to email proof of address / business name etc.

Easyspace Ltd hostmaster@easyspace.com via registrarmail.net
16 Oct
cleardot.gif
cleardot.gif
cleardot.gif
to me
cleardot.gif
Greetings,

Recently you registered or modified the contact information for one or more of your domain name(s). As of September 22, 2014, Nominet requires all accredited registrars to validate their contact information. You can read aboutNominet's new policy at: http://www.nominet.org.uk/become-registrar/registrar-agreement/data-quality-policy

The following domain name requires verification by 2014-11-15:

.....c o.uk

In order to ensure your domain name(s) remain active, you must now click the following link and follow the instructions provided. You will be required to upload a document to prove that the name and address assigned to your domain name are correct.

Failure to follow the above link and complete this process will eventually lead to the suspension of your domain name(s).

Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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It's a disaster for small businesses.

My sister sells a lot of stuff online, for a couple of pounds a go. She's going to be hit hard by this. Not only do you have to charge the customer the correct VAT rate for their country, but instead of paying VAT to HMRC you have to pay it to each country where each customer is located.

When what you're selling goes for about £3 in the first place (many digital goods like ebooks are very cheap), the accounting burden very quickly wipes out any profit.

So much for the common market.

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It's a disaster for small businesses.

My sister sells a lot of stuff online, for a couple of pounds a go. She's going to be hit hard by this. Not only do you have to charge the customer the correct VAT rate for their country, but instead of paying VAT to HMRC you have to pay it to each country where each customer is located.

When what you're selling goes for about £3 in the first place (many digital goods like ebooks are very cheap), the accounting burden very quickly wipes out any profit.

So much for the common market.

+1

it's like some kind of Iron "Cyber-Curtain" coming down, rather quickly as well.

THe Vi's / Eu / Corps are forgetting that this little bit of cash from trading, greases the wheels, allowing many otherwise unemployable people to forage out a frugal existence & keep them occupied, rather than dwell on their often lonely life .

. Many have already been pushed so close to the edge.

Perhaps the Cartel Corps think it will force millions of wageless work fare worker drone slaves into their hamster wheels.

It may lead to a large increase in mental illness, crime going through the roof and perhaps riots through poverty.

Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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This is a big subject and I will try to avoid going off on tangents.

Firstly ebay fees in themselves are interesting, as far as vat is concerned, as credit card fees, for example, attract no vat. There is an interesting ongoing wrangle between HMRC and travel agents who historically passed credit card surcharges directly on to customers without vat. HMRC are claiming (also retroactively) they should. The classic example being postage had no vat but mail order businesses had to still add vat to customers - postage to businesses now has vat on although I believe Joe Public at the PO counter still gets vat free prices.

It has been the case for a while that anyone selling into the UK/EU from outside the EU was supposed to register for vat immediately (google netp if you want more details) but only had to do so in one EU country hence the stampede to Luxembourg where vat is 15%.

Despite their rep all the big players like ebay and Amazon complied with this. Frankly, there must be thousands of other companies from HK, China etc. that did not comply and it's totally unclear how the EU could have enforced this or compelled them to comply. Now this has all changed again.

Edit to add:

Having read that link this isn't quite what I thought it was but I did spot this very interesting and potentially jaw-dropping snippet from HMRC:

Who is making the supply?
If you supply consumers through an online store or gateway, and the online store or gateway is acting in its own name, then they will normally be considered to be supplying the consumer. This means that the online store or gateway will be responsible for declaring and paying any VAT due. You will be treated as supplying the store and so will be making a business to business (B2B) supply, rather than a B2C supply. If this is the case, these rule changes do not directly affect you.

This would imply that on an ebay/Amazon transaction it is in fact they who are responsible for the vat on the transaction and that they should obtain a vat invoice, made out to them, from their sellers prior to handing funds over. To be honest the more I think about it the more this is obviously what should always have been the case. Did marketplaces somehow wrangle some, I would say legally very unsound, exemption.

Under the circumstances, historically all the vat on ebay and Amazon sales should have been going to the Luxembourg exchequer in that case. HMRC might claim they've lost revenue from unregistered sellers but was the money really theirs anyway, in the first place?

This would make it massively disadvantageous for them, as like with my example above where postage historically had no vat, a registered business had to charge vat to a customer where an unregistered one could pass postage costs on vat free. In theory ebay/Amazon should have been charging vat on all their sales regardless of whether the person they were getting to fulfil it was vat registered or not.

Edited by SNACR

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It's a disaster for small businesses.

While true, wasn't this nonsense driven, at least in part, by small businesses whining 'wah-wah-wha, Amazon don't pay VAT here and I do, it's so unfair, wah-wah-wah'?

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While true, wasn't this nonsense driven, at least in part, by small businesses whining 'wah-wah-wha, Amazon don't pay VAT here and I do, it's so unfair, wah-wah-wah'?

So how have we ended up with tax changes which massively advantage Amazon?!

It's right there in the rules. If you go through Amazon or another 'online store or gateway', then you avoid this red tape. Except of course in that case you're paying fees to your marketplace provider. In some sectors this can be as much as a 30% cut.

I don't see how microbusinesses with their own web storefronts can avoid being effectively forced to do all their business through an intermediary. The reporting requirements are just too onerous - there's no hope of finding out a customer's landline number, SIM card country code, or which train journey the wifi point they're using is on, so instead I'm apparently meant to record two (or maybe three?) pieces of 'non-conflicting' information. What if my customer uses a French credit card from an IP in Wales? Do I have to decline the sale?

Only the big boys will have the resources to deal with these regulations.

And why only digital goods? If I send someone a DVD with my ebook on, no rule changes whatsoever.

Edited by irrationalactor

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So how have we ended up with tax changes which massively advantage Amazon?!

It's right there in the rules. If you go through Amazon or another 'online store or gateway', then you avoid this red tape. Except of course in that case you're paying fees to your marketplace provider. In some sectors this can be as much as a 30% cut.

I don't see how microbusinesses with their own web storefronts can avoid being effectively forced to do all their business through an intermediary. The reporting requirements are just too onerous - there's no hope of finding out a customer's landline number, SIM card country code, or which train journey the wifi point they're using is on, so instead I'm apparently meant to record two (or maybe three?) pieces of 'non-conflicting' information. What if my customer uses a French credit card from an IP in Wales? Do I have to decline the sale?

Only the big boys will have the resources to deal with these regulations.

And why only digital goods? If I send someone a DVD with my ebook on, no rule changes whatsoever.

This does seem to be designed to drive all sales through ebay and amazon.

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This is a big subject and I will try to avoid going off on tangents.

Firstly ebay fees in themselves are interesting, as far as vat is concerned, as credit card fees, for example, attract no vat. There is an interesting ongoing wrangle between HMRC and travel agents who historically passed credit card surcharges directly on to customers without vat. HMRC are claiming (also retroactively) they should. The classic example being postage had no vat but mail order businesses had to still add vat to customers - postage to businesses now has vat on although I believe Joe Public at the PO counter still gets vat free prices.

It has been the case for a while that anyone selling into the UK/EU from outside the EU was supposed to register for vat immediately (google netp if you want more details) but only had to do so in one EU country hence the stampede to Luxembourg where vat is 15%.

Despite their rep all the big players like ebay and Amazon complied with this. Frankly, there must be thousands of other companies from HK, China etc. that did not comply and it's totally unclear how the EU could have enforced this or compelled them to comply. Now this has all changed again.

Edit to add:

Having read that link this isn't quite what I thought it was but I did spot this very interesting and potentially jaw-dropping snippet from HMRC:

This would imply that on an ebay/Amazon transaction it is in fact they who are responsible for the vat on the transaction and that they should obtain a vat invoice, made out to them, from their sellers prior to handing funds over. To be honest the more I think about it the more this is obviously what should always have been the case. Did marketplaces somehow wrangle some, I would say legally very unsound, exemption.

Under the circumstances, historically all the vat on ebay and Amazon sales should have been going to the Luxembourg exchequer in that case. HMRC might claim they've lost revenue from unregistered sellers but was the money really theirs anyway, in the first place?

This would make it massively disadvantageous for them, as like with my example above where postage historically had no vat, a registered business had to charge vat to a customer where an unregistered one could pass postage costs on vat free. In theory ebay/Amazon should have been charging vat on all their sales regardless of whether the person they were getting to fulfil it was vat registered or not.

As discussed at links below, Chinese sellers were often failing to register for Vat

CHINESE SELLERS PUTTING UK SELLERS OUT OF BUSINESS.

Chinese eBay sellers with UK based stock
At a time when thousands of ebay & amazon 3rd party sellers are leaving to sell through their own websites, due to sales dropping off a cliff & draconian ebay rule changes.
(as detailed on the "massive-drop-in-online-sales-for-ebay-amazon-play" thread )
It seem rather a coincidence, that Vat rule changes may force the un-vat-registered ones to have to come back to ebay / az to avoid this vat redtape nightmare
Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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Everything to do with business in the EU is of disadvantage to small business (and smal countries). Everything to do with VAT is of disadvantage to small businesses.

(Apologies for predictabl outlook)

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So how have we ended up with tax changes which massively advantage Amazon?!

Because the people demanding that Amazon be forced to pay VAT in the country where the buyer lived were clueless and didn't consider the inevitable consequences for more than two seconds?

Edited by MarkG

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Because the people demanding that Amazon be forced to pay VAT in the country where the buyer lived were clueless and didn't consider the inevitable consequences for more than two seconds?

No I think this is really more akin to a trade war with tax authorities deciding it's better to have a bit of revenue than it all go to Luxembourg.

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VAT evading Chinese firms are wiping out British business

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/vat-evading-chinese-firms-wiping-4657621

This Christmas could be the last for many British online traders.

Slaughtered, wiped out, destroyed.

That’s how some of them describe the tide of Chinese rivals that are driving them out of business.

The Chinese tactics used are brutally simple: They don’t pay VAT, which means they can undercut homegrown rivals by 20%.

In theory, if a business is based outside the EU but has its stock here then is should be VAT registered.

The practice is very different, as a look at just one eBay market shows.

Out of the top 10 firms by turnover that are selling iPad cases, five are Chinese firms with their stock in Britain – and none list a VAT number.

Take the top seller of iPad cases, a trader using the name besdta_top.

In the “item location” box on its eBay page it states “Birmingham”, so it should be VAT registered.

Then click on the “Business seller information” box and you get an address in Guangdong Province, China. But no VAT number.....The scale of this problem is huge and getting bigger. In Manchester there’s a 20,000  square foot automated warehouse called Bird System that acts as a fulfilment house for Chinese sellers.

By having their stock here, they can offer next day delivery, which is essential to attracting buyers.

But it also means they should compete with British sellers on a level playing field by paying VAT.

One of the victims of this invasion has compiled a detailed analysis of the crisis.

Around Christmas 2012, his turnover in electronic goods was around £90,000, last Christmas it had dropped
to £60,000 and now it is nearer £20,000.

“This time last year there were five of us and now I’ve made everyone redundant apart from me and my wife,” said the trader, who doesn’t want to be named for fear of repercussions.

“We are three months behind paying rent on our warehouse and on the brink of bankruptcy. The Chinese sellers selling in the UK without paying VAT has wiped out UK best sellers, we cannot get near their price.”

Yet, he says, he cannot get anyone to take the problem seriously.

“I’ve been banging my head against a wall with eBay and sent my report to the VAT fraud office and nothing seems to get done. Meanwhile we are getting slaughtered.”

Is this article for real ?

http://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/Business-Seller-Board/Is-this-article-for-real/m-p/4028523#U4028523

The Chinese have already put me out of business...I declared bankruptcy in Feb this year after my sales went down and down, until I was losing money every week. I sold ladies fashions for 7 years, but I had to watch, despite all of my efforts to increase stock and sales, as it just went further into decline.

Chinese manufacturers just copy ithe pictures of items which myself and other fashion Sellers on here, buy from Europe. They then manufacture cheap copies, list the items on eBay uk using our pictures, but at a fraction of the price!!! and Buyers do not know the difference in quality, until their item arrives...

But it is true....EBay do not wish to know and do absolutely nothing about it.

But fortunately I am now enjoying my retirement, and not missing Ebay at all.

I am just sorry for those who are still trying to make a living out of it...

Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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Entrepreneurs hit out at Cable's claim that VAT MOSS controversy 'is not new or sudden'

http://www.businesszone.co.uk/topic/entrepreneurs-hit-out-cables-claim-vat-moss-controversy-not-new-or-sudden/58751

The business secretary was replying to a petition with in excess of 10,000 signatures which says many micro-businesses will lose their VAT exemption and face new red tape as a result of the changes being introduced on 1 January 2015.

Aimed at tackling the practice of many big companies that funnel sales through low tax countries, the rules mean VAT will be applicable on products and services such as ebooks and online courses.

But Cable said: "The changes to VAT on digital products is not new or sudden. The change was agreed in 2008 and we've done a lot to communicate it to businesses. Regardless, the majority of UK micro-businesses will not be affected.

"Micro-businesses that trade only in the UK, and never sell to the EU, won't have to do anything. They won't have to register for VAT in 2015. Micro-businesses that do sell to other countries in the EU but only do so through marketplaces like an app store also won't have to register for VAT. It's up to the operator of the marketplace to account for VAT charges.

"Micro-businesses that trade to the UK and to the EU will have to register for VAT. But if they can separate out their cross-border business from their domestic they will only have to register for VAT on their cross-border sales. UK sales will be unaffected. Hope that helps clear up the change."

Some signatories of the petition however were not pleased with Cable's response. 'Sarah Paine' said: "What, exactly, have you done to "communicate this"? There are thousands of us small micro businesses that get tax returns every year, clearly detailing that we sell digital products, and there's been NO communication."

'Rob Wilson' added: "Sorry Mr Cable, you want to force me to use a platform that didn't have to use before or have a nightmare [sic]. So instead of taxing Amazon more you force me to give them money they would not have had.

VAT MOSS: 'Vince Cable must resign'

http://www.businesszone.co.uk/topic/finances/vat-moss-vince-cable-must-resign/58771

Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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If you sell via amazon kindle then amazon will deal with any vat stuff and you can continue to sell cross-border as usual.

Don't Amazon take a very large chunk for that pleasure ?

Ebay & amazon don't allow some digital items to be sold on their sites.

I think its the thin end of the wedge & physical items will be next, being forced to be vat registered as a micro business

As I've been following in the thread below, many sellers are experiencing massive drops in sales from the duopoly markets of eBay & Amazon.

Often, their solution is to start a website, or go to a tiny (in comparison) market like http://www.etsy.com/ , so they will be caught between a rock & a hard place.

Massive Drop In Online Sales For Ebay, Amazon, Play

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/190712-massive-drop-in-online-sales-for-ebay-amazon-play/

Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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Don't Amazon take a very large chunk for that pleasure ?

30%, isn't it?

But, hey, it's a small price to pay to help the government steal more taxes.

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30%, isn't it?

But, hey, it's a small price to pay to help the government steal more taxes.

https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A29FL26OKE7R7B

35% to 65% for amazon? though it appears intentionally confusing imo :unsure: :angry:

There's also a MB "delivery charge" with the 70% royalty option

Delivery Costs are equal to the number of megabytes we determine your Digital Book file contains, multiplied by the Delivery Cost rate listed below.

Amazon.com: US $0.15/MB

India on Amazon.com: INR ₹7/MB

Amazon CA: CAD $0.15/MB

Brazil: BRL R$0.30/MB

Amazon.co.uk: UK £0.10/MB

Amazon.de: €0,12/MB

Amazon.fr: €0,12/MB

Amazon.es: €0,12/MB

Amazon.it: €0,12/MB

Amazon.nl: €0,12/MB

Amazon.co.jp: ¥1/MB

Amazon.com.mx: MXN $1/MB

Amazon.com.au: AUD $0.15/MB

We will round file sizes up to the nearest kilobyte. The minimum Delivery Cost for a Digital Book will be US$0.01 for sales in US Dollars, INR₹1 for sales in Indian Rupees, CAD$0.01 for sales in CAD Dollars, £0.01 for sales in GB Pounds, ¥1 in JPY, R$0.01 for sales in Brazilian Reais, MXN$1 for sales in Mexican Pesos, AUD$0.01 for sales in Australian Dollars, and €0.01 for sales in Euros, regardless of file size.

For sales in JPY, we will not deduct any Delivery Cost for books 10 MB or greater.

Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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Ebay/Amazon should always have been charging vat, passing it on and supplying invoices to customers. On that basis everyone knows where they stand which is useful to customers also as it is never really very clear on ebay if the selling price includes reclaimable vat and invoices from sellers are very hit and miss even with those that clearly sell products aimed at businesses.

If you take a regular auction house they would never be permitted to carry out the auction, make the sale, take the money - before taking their cut - and then passing the customer on to the person selling the item for the invoicing side of things.

Like so much it's more government legislation and bureaucracy stuck in the era of quill and accounts ledger.

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If businesses just ignored it how would they possibly police it?

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