Nosey Doctors

[Rave]

Still ain't figured out how to split quotes up with the new forum software.

Precisely the type of ignorant drivel that pisses me off.

The UK is one of the most heavily densely populated places in Europe, particularly England (Scotland moves the average for the whole country down quite a bit). It's beyond me how anyone can't notice it.

Densely populated yes. Overdeveloped no. We cram ourselves into shitty little houses to defend the countryside of what is, by the standards of the rest of the planet, a quite unspectacular little country.

"What it is about someone else aspiring to a nice house and a decent standard of living that upsets you" - oh please. What a completely and utterly ridiculous conclusion to draw.

O.K. well I'm a native Englishman wanting a nice house for the equivalent of what my parents paid, what's your proposal?

"Leave then" doesn't change that it's still happening to something I care about. Talk about massive over-simplification.

It's happening and there's apparently nothing you can do about it. So tell me: is the rational response to stay and get angry, or put it down as a bad job and seek your fortune elsewhere?

A state that needs a continually increasing population, even slightly, is failed already, and is only putting off the inevitable when even the most shortsighted will notice the problems. Since it's already well past optimum for quality of life a slow decline is the best option.

A slow decline is the best option? LMAO, is it heck. But glad you know what's best for the rest of us.

[Riedquat]

Unspectacular for the most part, perhaps. Doesn't stop it from being very pleasant and attractive and somethign to be proud of where it hasn't been messed up. It's overdeveloped. It stuns me that anyone can be so blind as to not see that. Compare with somewhere like France, approximately the same population and twice the land area. Massive noticable difference (to anyone aware of what's immediately in front of their eyes at the current moment).

What proposal? Not having a good solution doesn't stop something from being a problem. A classic sign of denial (politicians seem to love it). I live in a rented place in Stockport, it's not as if it's "I've got my nice spot, don't care what everyone else gets."

"Leave then". No, shouldn't have to, shouldn't need to. That's like saying it's my fault for not going somewhere else if I've got a neighbour who plays loud music in the early hours often.

Go on then, what's the probem with a slow decline? The big increase didn't exactly do us any good. But glad you know what's best for us. Some overblown economic nonsense? Get the basic necessities of life sorted (which we've largely had for several decades now) and a pleasant environment and pleasant company are the biggest impact - and our environment is getting continually less pleasant. It was much better still a century ago but the necessities hadn't been sorted out then for far too many people.

Yes, some people like yourself don't have a problem with it. Others do. A lot more realise that what they thought was normal and OK turns out actually not to be if they get a chance to escape it (or at any rate it was OK but something else is much better).

Splitting quotes is easier if you press the button in the top left corner above the edit box (then you can edit the raw code and use quote /quote tags).

[DTMark]

You can't change the world. You can only change yourself and your perception of it.

So I don't watch Question Time any more, and we're emigrating to The Netherlands next year.

If you wondered why..

It's a much more cultured society. For instance, there are second-hand bookshops everywhere.

It's clean and tidy.

Everything works, most especially public transport.

It is classless.

There is what I would call a "notion of respect" among people which doesn't really exist here outside of smaller rural communities.

We're going for Amsterdam and that's a huge departure for me. I don't think that you can beat the English countryside (beauty, wildlife), but I think most of our towns and cities are pretty miserable and that most of London is, frankly, a stinking cess-pit.

It may drive me mad and leave me yearning for this cottage again. But I won't know until I try, and see if the proverbial grass really is greener.

I agree on what you describe as the "basic necessities of life". You could consider moving somewhere rural. If it were not for living here in Hampshire, we'd have made a much more concerted effort to emigrate a long time ago.

[Riedquat]

The world is getting changed and it's the deliberate actions of people doing it - and those who passively accept it are indirectly repsonsible.

Isn't the Netherlands the one bit of Europe more densley populated than England (not counting place like Monaco obviously)? And flat. I don't think that I could enjoy with it, although I hope it works for you.

I don't think that you can beat the English countryside either and it's probably the thing that I like the most about the place, hell, one of the things that I like most of anything, which is why I get so bothered about it being treated with such complete and utter disrespect by the likes of Rave. A small house but an attractive area sounds far better than a large one with all the conveniences in an unattractive one. I rather suspect that the same is true for a lot of other people, perhaps a majority of them - why else are a lot of the busiest tourist places the places that they are?

The social problems are all too true with the UK. I think that there are some of the best people in the world here but there are far too many bad ones. I can fully understand wanting to get rid of that.

One thing we could definitely do is build less characterless flimsy shite, no matter what size it actually is.

Moving-wise I'm stuck job-wise. Perhaps I could find something else but I've spent many years trying to work out what.

[DTMark]

I think I'm right in saying that the UK took the crown from the Netherlands as the "most densely populated country in Europe" about five years ago.

There's a T-shirt I saw with the words "No, I didn't see the X-Factor, because I'm not a f***ing moron" printed on the front. I'm very nearly egotistical enough to buy and wear it.

I say egotistical because it makes millions of people happy. Apparently. Who am I to judge..

Being the cynical b***ard that I am, I see it as an entirely stage-managed exercise in making money from phone voting. It is so "superficial".

But then if I ask myself "Were things really any different 30 years ago?" I'm not sure that they were. We're just a bit slicker at stage-managing and exploiting human emotion. And it's only a TV programme.

To see where all this leads, see the movie "Idiocracy". It's not a great film by any means, but it will chime with you.

The main bit of this forum has people "trying to understand and solve the world's problems" and there isn't really agreement there. I will occasionally wade into a thread that has "gone all Left-Wing" beyond any reasonable notion of common sense (in my eyes) but I generally stay away.

Actually, I think we're a fairly nasty species really. Tribalism and xenophobia abound, still, even now (and when I say xenophobia don't infer that to mean "mass immigration is fine and anyone who disagrees is racist", the classic race card that's so often played) and I suspect these are characteristics of the species which when added to the desire for instant gratification will, in the end, be its undoing.

But in the meantime, it's New Year's Eve, I'll have some drinks tonight, and tomorrow is another day.

[Riedquat]

but I think most of our towns and cities are pretty miserable and that most of London is, frankly, a stinking cess-pit.

They are also large and really all rather close to each other for the most part, with a reasonable scatter of smaller versions between. Even if the in between bits are the majority and still often rather pleasant it's still usually pretty damned obvious that the miserable town is just around the corner (the bit "it's only x% built on" crowd overlook, or somehow don't even understand). How many places haven't grown hugely in a mere century? And the growth has been of, for the most part, rather miserable and lifeless construction (even more so than the fairly dull acres of Victorian terraces, although they would've been rather more miserable to live in). Even in between it's rather a dull mess sometimes, mostly as a result of human effort, and mostly in the last 100 years.

And it appears that there are large numbers of people who simply don't see this, hence my earlier comparison to the cat who's happy if he just gets his food and somewhere warm to sleep, get that and he could be in some post-apolcolyptic hell-hole for all he cares. I suppose the question is why do the people bother me but the cat doesn't? Is it just that the cat can't know any better? Are there lots of people who aren't much better than animals who happen to be able to speak? Maybe I should treat them like that. I didn't say that in the past because it just sounded incredibly arrogant (probably because it is) but I'm starting to change there. I'm giving up thinking that there may be a bit of decency and quality buried somewhere in a lot of people.

Often people seem more fundamentally friendly and open (with some obvious exceptions) when you find the less badly-affeted fringes, probably because all this "not at all a problem" change is also atrocious for community.

[Riedquat]

I think I'm right in saying that the UK took the crown from the Netherlands as the "most densely populated country in Europe" about five years ago.

Wow, that is depressing. Still, perhaps I should really work out a move to Scotland, aside from the central belt it's still pleasantly uncrowded for the most part (Dumfries and Galloway is very pleasant indeed, it doesn't necessarily mean the Highlands). God knows how I'll make a living there.

There's a T-shirt I saw with the words "No, I didn't see the X-Factor, because I'm not a f***ing moron" printed on the front. I'm very nearly egotistical enough to buy and wear it.

I say egotistical because it makes millions of people happy. Apparently. Who am I to judge..

I'd applaud it if I saw it. Mind you I don't like most of the music you like, so again... Of course what people watch in their own homes doesn't affect me at all (and I doubt there's anyone who doesn't like some sort of mindless escapism occasionally), but even so. Perhaps a symptom rather than a cause.

Being the cynical b***ard that I am, I see it as an entirely stage-managed exercise in making money from phone voting. It is so "superficial".

A lot of things that people want are superficial. Easy and superficial over a bit more meaning and quality, even if things aren't quite as easy.

But in the meantime, it's New Year's Eve, I'll have some drinks tonight, and tomorrow is another day.

Well, at least I don't get bothered as much by things when I'm pissed.

[DTMark]

If you fly over the Netherlands, it looks "ordered". If you fly over the UK you get the impression that everything dropped from the sky and was left where it fell.

I prefer cats to people.

We lost both of ours to cancer in the last year. I was absolutely devastated. And still am. I'm not yet at that stage where I can think back to our female one and not see those last couple of weeks. But it will come.

I did start a thread once some time back which was along similar musings to you. In essence, "What is the point of life". I recall feeling quite depressed at that time. There wasn't really any answer, but then I don't suppose there would be.

What I would say is that depression makes everything monotone, grey, dull. Even things which once stimulated you fail to evoke the expected responses. It is over-arching, and effectively turns you into a different person while it persists. Things that were once mildly annoying but ignorable present themselves as major issues and a sense of perspective dies.

I am not trivialising what you write nor the issues that you raise many of which I would agree with you on. All I am suggesting is that the severity of your responses to them is connected with your depression. Again you can't change the world, but you can change your perception of it.

I'll try an analogy that works well for me:

Imagine your brain is the front of a toy shop. The train goes around in a circle. It disappears into a tunnel at the back to re-emerge later.

The train is your train of thought. The tunnel is your sub-conscious. The part you can see and interact with is your active mind.

What you choose to put onto the train is then carried into the sub-conscious mind when the train goes into the tunnel. "You get more of what you think of".

Clearly if you're down and out with barely enough pennies for a bowl of soup the above might make sense but does not empower you to do anything much that's constructive.

But for most, you can choose what you put onto the train.

[Riedquat]

Mention "train" and I'm likely to start a rant on my views of the modern railway...

I like a degree of disorder, too ordered and I find things start becoming impersonal, dull, lifeless. Most of the interest in the world is found in the nooks and crannies.

I'm afraid what you're saying still sounds like it boils down to "it's not really that bad, deal with it." I can't agree with that. It's bad (well, OK, a lot of it isn't terrible even if it's been better, it's the direction of the change as much as anything, if thigns appeared to be getting better I'd be OK - I'm not impatient). The "well, it's not too bad" attitude is the cause of it all, and we'd all (or most of us) be living much better lives now if we didn't have that attitude. A great many things individually don't seem too bad, or at least in an ideal world they'd be gone but in practice the upsides outweigh the down so shouldn't be something worth getting worked up about but that's taking far too small a view. The result of lots of such things leaves us with "Christ, what have we done?", at least for anyone who actually notices the change (lots of people seem completely blind to what's been lost and over-emphasise the impact of some of what's been gained).

FWIW the least bad thing in the short to medium term would seem to be to put up with what's needed to give a reasonable house for the population we've got (and the infrastructure to go with it) and stop there, no more, kill population growth (IMO this can be achieved without resorting to anything unethical). It'll have to be done eventually anyway, it's not as if infinite increase for ever is even physically possible.

[DTMark]

Look at it this way:

Right at this moment, somebody, somewhere is dumping a new-born litter of puppies at the side of the road.

I can't do anything about that.

That I do not go out endlessly driving up and down the A3 to see if I can, by miracle of chance, rescue them if I see them, does not mean that it isn't happening nor that I am indifferent to their suffering.

There are some things that I can directly or indirectly influence, but most things are outside my sphere of influence.

I have always had some envy for the archetypal Sun reader who works on a building site. Who gets fresh air each day, is physically fitter than me, probably has an IQ about half of mine (I don't think that's pushing it too far) and yet is infinitely happier, couldn't give a toss about the Tory party, and is more interested in the six-pack in the fridge. Loves their kids, is stable, and overall, happier.

The picture I've painted is a stereotype, yes. But we both live in the same world. We just see it differently.

[Riedquat]

If you saw them dumping the puppies you'd still feel pretty bad even if you were unable to do anything. I'm seeing it almost all of the time. It's affecting the things that give me the most pleasure.

I can well believe that person was happy - it's going back to my (admittedly derogatory) animal comparison. The less you care about and appreciate the easier it is to be happy. Is that a good thing? I'd hate not to be able to appreciate the nuances and details. "It's better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all." Would not being able to love be a price worth paying to never experience grief?

[DTMark]

What I can do, is give money to the RPSCA every year, which I do - I can't stop scum from dumping their animals, but I can help with the aftermath.

I think only individuals can answer your last question.

I can say with certainty that our last little cat, Maddy, the female, who we adopted at age 9 and who had to be put to sleep a month or so ago aged only 12 thanks to lymph node cancer, was "worth it".

Even during the agonies of the last couple of weeks, scooping her up for a final time and putting her in the cat carrier to go to the vet - it was all worth it for the three years that I got to spend with her. I can honestly say that I have never loved anything, or anybody, as much as her. She was so very special.

But then we were able to give her a home for those three years. People don't generally want to adopt black cats for whatever reason and certainly not older ones, according to the homing agency. And we got that special time with her.

It's ended now, and our emigration is the reason we haven't got more cats. Yet.

Cats are quite emotionally complicated animals. Birds less so. They "live for the moment". But then most of them only live for a few years.

The idea of not having emotion is explored to death in science fiction e.g. the Cybermen. However it isn't actually possible to create something like that and still have the human 'part'. The human brain is the logic *and* the emotion. You cannot separate them, it's how the brain is wired up - an electrical charge and a chemical = a thought. Very roughly.

There will be many things that have made you happy before, and there will be things that will make you happy again, though you may not be able to see what they are at the moment.

[MrPin]

What I can do, is give money to the RPSCA every year, which I do - I can't stop scum from dumping their animals, but I can help with the aftermath.

I think only individuals can answer your last question.

I can say with certainty that our last little cat, Maddy, the female, who we adopted at age 9 and who had to be put to sleep a month or so ago aged only 12 thanks to lymph node cancer, was "worth it".

I think cats can be lovely! Sounds like you had a nice friend!

[council dweller]

DT mark.....thanks, great story.

I`ve also got an `unpopular` black cat. Picked her up from Tesco`s car park, I trapped her in the back of the van.

She gave birth as soon as I got her home. My wife hated her, said I`d never be able to tame her down (wrong!)

Getting rid of her 2 kittens was easy surprisingly, one went to the vets receptionist the other 2 were stillborn.

So, it`s been 3 years and no regrets. Cats are a gift...

[Riedquat]

No cat of my own (would like one if I lived somewhere a bit more suitable) but my mum's black cat is a very friendly creature. Sad if they're unpopular, he's getting on now but still has a very shiny coat (and claws more like most kittens). They've had him since he was a kitten, from the local animal rescue. He was left there by some people who stopped half way up the motorway only to hear a noise from under the bonnet and find a kitten clinging to the engine.

[council dweller]

Yes well, as a council tenant I`m allowed to `keep the usual pets`.

I don`t know what to say...