Why Does Religion Still Exist?

[oracle]

pity that tony blair was one of the most INtolerant people on the planet..dressed up in the party frock of tolerance.

his "third way" politics was/is basically fascism.

[oracle]

Open mind b0llocks, I suppose that means open to the possibility of fairies, goblins and hobbits.

Religion is purely a means of controlling people, using divide and conquer and that`s it.

It would die out if people weren't allowed to commit child abuse on a daily basis in the form of religious indoctrination.

I`m more of an anti-theist than an atheist and I`ve even had idiots claim that atheism is another form of religion which just shows how stupid some folk can be.

Religion, after all, thrives on that stupidity

I believe there is someone/something up there, I just disagree that the so called established religious hierarchies have got the answers.

purchase my brand of after-life insurance or be tortured by fire and brimstone, if put into modern legalistic terms, would be deemed extortion and demanding money(or allegiance) with menaces.

Nothing to do with love or compassion here..this is pure unadulterated gangsterism.

conjouring up a few "incidents" to rough you up like broken windows or deliberate house-fires you would not tolerate from an insurance company trying to sell you stuff, but that's what's happening.

the worst hypocrites of the lot ARE THE PRIESTHOOD.

[sPinwheel]

pity that tony blair was one of the most INtolerant people on the planet..dressed up in the party frock of tolerance.

his "third way" politics was/is basically fascism.

He'll be looking down at you from Heaven, grining as you burn in Hell.

[oracle]

....best to keep an open mind, open not closed......I do wonder if people are searching for something but can't quite put their finger on what it is they are looking for......some people may have found it?

....anyway if a religion is a belief, so must atheism be a belief.

absolutely agree.

which is why "organised" religeon has such a problem.

it is THEIR INTERPRETATION of scripture....might as well fight over the pronounciation of the word TOMATO, it really is that stupid.

we've already seen what chaos ensues from the likes of baroso misquoting chruchill....wordsmithery is such a wonderful thing.

[oracle]

He'll be looking down at you from Heaven, grining as you burn in Hell.

if heaven is full of people like him I'll take my chances thanks very much!

bossy interfering busybodies with a moral-superiority-complex, not for me.

thought they were all supposed to be meek and humble people inheriting the earth.

[oracle]

Yep, I see it as religion scaring us to conform, so that you are not punished (or perhaps rewarded) in the here after....all playing into our fear of the unknown...

I could image Pin becoming a cult leader...

so what gives the priests etc the right to administer the punishment?

that's not their job....even in old testament they are supposed to be "guides",not overlords.

they were also supposed to share knowledge, not to keep it to themselves and sell the unwashed masses perversions and stories.

and royalty....."thou shalt not multiply horses unto thyself "etc....that means the taxes you raise ARE NOT FOR PERSONAL USE..THEY BELONG TO THE COMMUNITY...you are an administrator, that's it....end of...get it?

when they get ideas above their station you end up with the sanhedrin making up their own rules,for their own benefit, making unjust diktats that kill the righteous( and end up up sh1t-creek in the end)

who watches the detectives?, if their conduct is less than expected by their superiors?..it's not a closed shop you know.

these guys also have someone to answer to...popes etc can't cover it up.

kings too, they are NOT above the law.

[winkie]

so what gives the priests etc the right to administer the punishment?

and who watches the detectives, if their conduct is less than expected by their superiors?..it's not a closed shop you know.

these guys also have someone to answer to...popes etc can't cover it up.

kings too, they are NOT above the law.

.....nobody has the right to administer anything....it is up to the individual what they will take or not take......what you as an individual believe or not believe is a very personal thing......that is why there are so many religions within religions.......do, think and believe in what you want...nothing should be forced on anyone....if it is forced it is wrong.....simple not difficult.....peace.

[Neverwhere]

Man the maker looks at his world and says, "So who made this, then?" Who made this? - you can see why it's a treacherous question. Early man thinks, "Well, because there's only one sort of being I know about who makes things, whoever made all this must therefore be a much bigger, much more powerful and necessarily invisible, one of me, and because I tend to be the strong one who does all the stuff, he's probably male." And so we have the idea of a God. Then, because when we make things, we do it with the intention of doing something with them, early man asks himself, "If he made it, what did he make it for?" Now the real trap springs, because early man is thinking, "This world fits me very well. Here are all these things that support me and feed me and look after me; yes, this world fits me nicely," and he reaches the inescapable conclusion that whoever made it, made it for him.

This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, "This is an interesting world I find myself in - an interesting hole I find myself in - fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!" This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be all right, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch-out for.

- Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt

[oracle]

Man the maker looks at his world and says, "So who made this, then?" Who made this? - you can see why it's a treacherous question. Early man thinks, "Well, because there's only one sort of being I know about who makes things, whoever made all this must therefore be a much bigger, much more powerful and necessarily invisible, one of me, and because I tend to be the strong one who does all the stuff, he's probably male." And so we have the idea of a God. Then, because when we make things, we do it with the intention of doing something with them, early man asks himself, "If he made it, what did he make it for?" Now the real trap springs, because early man is thinking, "This world fits me very well. Here are all these things that support me and feed me and look after me; yes, this world fits me nicely," and he reaches the inescapable conclusion that whoever made it, made it for him.

This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, "This is an interesting world I find myself in - an interesting hole I find myself in - fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!" This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be all right, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch-out for.

- Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt

in the beginning, the word was god.

what are words?....sound patterns?

all this physical matter is just "interference patterns" between waves of sound...we don't really exist in physical form!

do you remember the term" well we seem to be on the same wavelength?...might be something to it after all!

even the jews YHVH...well if you look at it the right way that is just the 90 degree phases of a sine wave.(and that IS KABBALISTIC).2 dimensional kabbalism..the sort that says a broken clock is right twice a day.

in scalar terms is correct, but vector terms is complete b0ll0cks.

lets go one or two better though....i prefer to think of it not just in "wave" terms, but in "laser" terms.

that way you can get the drift of this inter-dimensional stuff...all light photons being slightly different energy levels, given a kick up the @rse to become a laser.

you can jump when the little hand of the clock is directly over the big hand.

[Nuggets Mahoney]

I've never entirely understood the seeming popularity of that Adams quote about puddles.

Afaic it's an example of the kind of rhetorical parable supposedly more characteristic of the religiously-inclined.

Fwiw it's more likely that 'early man' was a polytheist who saw himself as an incidental character living in a chaotic, bonkers universe populated by feuding deities. Monotheism and the notion of human-centric Creation came later.

And if a puddle ever did wake up one day, capable of self-awareness and introspection, it'd arguably be entitled to ask itself wtf was going on.

[Neverwhere]

I've never entirely understood the seeming popularity of that Adams quote about puddles.

Afaic it's an example of the kind of rhetorical parable supposedly more characteristic of the religiously-inclined.

Fwiw it's more likely that 'early man' was a polytheist who saw himself as an incidental character living in a chaotic, bonkers universe populated by feuding deities. Monotheism and the notion of human-centric Creation came later.

And if a puddle ever did wake up one day, capable of self-awareness and introspection, it'd arguably be entitled to ask itself wtf was going on.

I think it's popular because it gives a plausible account of why people would create an imaginary god; it doesn't have to be literally correct, it's simply demonstrating that there are plausible reasons why people create religions that don't actually require being visited by angels or whatnot. Also it's quite funny!

I don't see why non religious people shouldn't engage in rhetorical parables? These are just examples of instructive story telling after all, so should have a place in any society concerned with the transmission of knowledge. The content of rhetorical parables is really the important thing when assessing whether they are religious or dogmatic in nature. No one actually has to obey any from Douglas Adams!

I also don't think there's anything in there that wouldn't work for a polytheistic pantheon, as these normally do have a function in creating and manipulating the world - although often this role is shared or duplicated in different area of the mythology (I haven't read any since college but if I recall correctly Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva all have creator roles in different Hindu tales for instance).

The point about the puddle isn't that it shouldn't be entitled to ask wtf is going on, it's in fact the opposite of this: the puddle starts by asking questions but then stops when they come to what is, with time, demonstrably the wrong conclusion; the puddle then fails to ask any more questions despite the mounting evidence that the puddle's original conclusions are wrong! The whole point of the parable is don't stop asking questions and always reassess with new evidence.

[FallingAwake]

I completely fail to see how. The idea of some fundamental purpose seems to run contradictory to the reality of our personal existence. The only purposes are those you chose to search for. It seems to me that the only sensible thing to do is try to lead as happy and personally rewarding life as possible, not for any greater reason but because what's the point in doing otherwise? Unfortunately I hate life, mostly due to being surrounded by people who, judging by their actions, have an idea of "happy and rewarding" that's massively at odds with mine (if they're doing it all for some other reason then they're just complete and utter fools).

Well, fortunately for you it will be all over soon.

Unfortunately you will have to wait for your trillions of cells to decide when that happens, because in the meantime, they're busy keeping you alive.

[Wurzel Of Highbridge]

I found out today that a guy I work with is a jehovah witness. I thought he was a bit odd, but couldn;t quite put my finger on it until today.

[Mrs Bear]

Apart from any early brainwashing, people don't like to think that once you're dead, that's it. They like to think of being reunited with people they've lost. And of course it'd be comforting to believe that this or that vile person would get their comeuppance at the hands of little demons with pitchforks and pointy tails.

I have a theory that religion started with rainbows and thunder and lightning. How on earth else would primitive man explain them?

Obviously there was some very mighty, very scary Being dishing these things out, according to whether he was mad at you, or not. Best try to appease him with a goat or a virgin or something.

[OnionTerror]

I found out today that a guy I work with is a jehovah witness. I thought he was a bit odd, but couldn;t quite put my finger on it until today.

I was working near a Plymouth Bretheran church a few weeks ago, and speaking to one of their neighbours, apparently they aren't allowed mobile phones as it "interfere's with the direct line to god", but they are allowed them in their cars??!!??

Fine if your an adult, you can make decisions to join such a church, but for a kid, they have no choice...

[Nuggets Mahoney]

I was working near a Plymouth Bretheran church a few weeks ago, and speaking to one of their neighbours, apparently they aren't allowed mobile phones as it "interfere's with the direct line to god", but they are allowed them in their cars??!!??

Fine if your an adult, you can make decisions to join such a church, but for a kid, they have no choice...

As it happens I've got a Brethren family as neighbours. I'm reasonably confident the Brethren have dragged their heels a bit with recent communications technology because of concerns about its potential corrupting influence, not because of psychic interference. They do love their motor cars and power tools though.

They're also, apparently, taught to steer clear of mortgages and semis and assist each other as a community to do so.

I find my take on them a bit reminiscent of Southpark's creators' take on the Mormons. Batsh1t, iffy beliefs that sometimes (no, not always) result in positive outcomes.

[Riedquat]

No mobiles? Good for them, I like the sound of them.

[OnionTerror]

As it happens I've got a Brethren family as neighbours. I'm reasonably confident the Brethren have dragged their heels a bit with recent communications technology because of concerns about its potential corrupting influence, not because of psychic interference. They do love their motor cars and power tools though.

They're also, apparently, taught to steer clear of mortgages and semis and assist each other as a community to do so.

I find my take on them a bit reminiscent of Southpark's creators' take on the Mormons. Batsh1t, iffy beliefs that sometimes (no, not always) result in positive outcomes.

I was working on a house, and they had built a massive brethren hall / church next door. These neighbours had major problems with the builders, and it involved dealing with planners, solicitors etc.. This neighbour had to ring someone on their mobile, and they person on the other end needed to speak to one of the leaders..They were quite agitated in using it, and then they said that line..

[Qetesuesi]

"You see he is trying to argue. Now tell me, someone, what is argument?"

There was a confused murmur.

"Come, come," said the jailor. "You must know your catechisms by now. You, there" (and he pointed to a prisoner little older than a boy whose name was Master Parrot), "what is argument?"

"Argument," said Master Parrot, "is the attempted rationalization of the arguer's desires."

"Very good," replied the jailor, "but you should turn out your toes and put your hands behind your back. That is better. Now: what is the proper answer to an argument providing the existence of the Landlord?"

"The proper answer is, "You say that because you are a Steward.""

"Good boy. But hold your head up. That's right. And what is the answer to an argument proving that Mr. Phally's songs are just as brown as Mr. Halfways'?"

"There are two only generally necessary to damnation," said Master Parrot. "The first is, "you say that because you are a Puritanian," and the second is, "You say that because you are a sensualist.""

"Good. Now just one more. What is the answer to an argument turning on the belief that two and two make four?"

"The answer is, "you say that because you are a mathematician.""

[Nuggets Mahoney]

No mobiles? Good for them, I like the sound of them.

Mobiles and PCs are treated as potential filth conduits. TVs are a no-no, except for education. Always beavering away doing something tangible as a family on account of not being stuck in front of two or three separate screens. Booze, OK. Family and community focused. Polite, positive and well turned out. Keen to return any favours. Mates round for a cheesey Christian-rock sing-song every Sunday night, etc etc

Downsides - the usual issues associated with tight communities of scriptural literalists.

Taken as a package, not something I'd try and sell. The argument about indoctrinating kids carries weight impo. But then I think about the relentless marketing directed at kids by corporations and the state and fear that there's a bit of an either/or situation going on here.

[OnionTerror]

Mobiles and PCs are treated as potential filth conduits. TVs are a no-no, except for education. Always beavering away doing something tangible as a family on account of not being stuck in front of two or three separate screens. Booze, OK. Family and community focused. Polite, positive and well turned out. Keen to return any favours. Mates round for a cheesey Christian-rock sing-song every Sunday night, etc etc

Downsides - the usual issues associated with tight communities of scriptural literalists.

Taken as a package, not something I'd try and sell. The argument about indoctrinating kids carries weight impo. But then I think about the relentless marketing directed at kids by corporations and the state and fear that there's a bit of an either/or situation going on here.

How do they manage in a "dog eat dog" situation...I mean, are they all a bit innocent on how the world works? I've worked in a Christian foodbank (I am not christian) some get it, others seem to be all innocent about life's harsh realities, and that "god will get them through xxxx".

I also believe that religion should not be enforced on kids (such as a faith school)..it should be left up to them after they have left school...I've turned against religion, as it was forced on me from the ages of 5 to 16 - brainwashing kids isn't right IMHO. I think you can be moral without believing in a deity.. Should the different religions be taught? Perhaps, but not instead of say, the basics of finance..You don't want the little ones becoming ignorant of the middle east etc, but for me, learning about mortgages, loans etc.. is perhaps some of the most important knowledge they'd take with them when they leave school.

[Nuggets Mahoney]

How do they manage in a "dog eat dog" situation...I mean, are they all a bit innocent on how the world works? I've worked in a Christian foodbank (I am not christian) some get it, others seem to be all innocent about life's harsh realities, and that "god will get them through xxxx

If we're talking specifically about my PB neighbours, funnily enough, their business went bust not too long ago as a consequence of what I took to be some fairly naive decisions. My understanding is that if it was God who provided he did it indirectly through family and community members.

If I recall correctly, one of the attractions of early Christian communities acknowledged by Roman writers was that the communities did function as philanthropic support networks, which the more fatalistic, cynical Romans weren't so bothered win.

I couldn't agree more about the importance of financial education, though it's unlikely that the indoctrination arm of a system so dependent on financial ignorance would ever make our dreams come true.

[MrPin]

I found out today that a guy I work with is a jehovah witness. I thought he was a bit odd, but couldn;t quite put my finger on it until today.

I've worked with a few, both young and old. At least they don't talk about it at work.

[MrPin]

If I recall correctly, one of the attractions of early Christian communities acknowledged by Roman writers was that the communities did function as philanthropic support networks, which the more fatalistic, cynical Romans weren't so bothered win.

I couldn't agree more about the importance of financial education, though it's unlikely that the indoctrination arm of a system so dependent on financial ignorance would ever make our dreams come true.

I'm sure you can do a combined course in Theology, and Accountancy, er, somewhere!

[OnionTerror]

If we're talking specifically about my PB neighbours, funnily enough, their business went bust not too long ago as a consequence of what I took to be some fairly naive decisions. My understanding is that if it was God who provided he did it indirectly through family and community members.

If I recall correctly, one of the attractions of early Christian communities acknowledged by Roman writers was that the communities did function as philanthropic support networks, which the more fatalistic, cynical Romans weren't so bothered win.

I couldn't agree more about the importance of financial education, though it's unlikely that the indoctrination arm of a system so dependent on financial ignorance would ever make our dreams come true.

I can completely understand the creation of a community, which be extremely useful...the church is often the only thing left for a lot of people...I have a bit of a fruitcake of an aunt who lives for the church...good for her...I think without it, she wouldn't have survived for so long.

What I don't like, is the indoctrination of the young...they have no say in it...the trouble is, is that C of E type schools make up the majority of schools. For me, financial planning and knowledge, is much more important than believing whether a sky pixie exists or not..Of course reflection and inner thoughts are important, but I don't think you need to believe in a religion to do this..