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Will Having Kids Soon Be Out Of Reach Economically?


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HOLA441

In theory.

That at least is a pendulum that can swing both ways. We've had two periods now when dropping a random sprog was a strongly rational career choice for a single girl: the 70s and the 00s. But they weren't the same, and I wouldn't rely on it always being thus.

I would not have said the 70s.

80s yes. There were very few single parent kids in the 70s.

There were loads in the mid-to-late 80s.

I think the change was a move to needs based benefits and changing the rules of council housing.

The 00s (well, post 2004) its tax credits doing the same thing.

It'll end like the 80s boom did - too many people, taking too much money, for too/zero work.

I strongly feel the UK is going to align with the rest of Europe and move to a contribution based welfare system. We don't really have choice if we want to stay in the EU.

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HOLA444

Fascinating take - which I have a lot of sympathy with. I don't blame my parents as they never had the cash and they did better by me than their parents did for them. Being able to grow confident and empathic kids who have a broad view of the potential the world offers doesn't require huge amounts of money - but it certainly needs more than barely scraping by. Otherwise the world just ends up being a very small place indeed if it is ring fenced by a "No, we can't afford it" or "You're spoiled enough already" - and it embeds itself in all kinds of insidious ways (even stuff like salary expectations, what a good life looks like etc). I've always liked this Kennedy quote:

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

Without wishing to get all Californian, it's partly why some see the world as a abundant, rich one - and why most see one of scarcity and limits.

I think (as a parent) that spending time with your kids pays off.

You going out and doing stuff with them, chatting to them, etc works.

Its getting them out and experiencing stuff and handling situations that pays off.

Mine don't get shuttled from place to place; we walk.

Equally, they don't go horse riding (why??) or music lessons (you seen how much professional muso gets paid?). You know, all the daft middle class stuff.

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HOLA445

I think (as a parent) that spending time with your kids pays off.

You going out and doing stuff with them, chatting to them, etc works.

Its getting them out and experiencing stuff and handling situations that pays off.

Mine don't get shuttled from place to place; we walk.

Equally, they don't go horse riding (why??) or music lessons (you seen how much professional muso gets paid?). You know, all the daft middle class stuff.

Oh and they get their clothes from sally army.

They get new shoes and a good, water-proof jacket but thats it.

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HOLA446

Oh and they get their clothes from sally army.

They get new shoes and a good, water-proof jacket but thats it.

Jumble sales were the best....taught the art of negotiation....almost new for next to nothing...why pay full lazy peoples price when you don't have to. ;)

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HOLA447

Indeed. My son has gone to uni at about the same time as friends had their first baby! They will be almost at retirement age by the time she's 18.

I'm scared by the age that some couples choose to knock out kids.

The risks are very high, not just Downs.

Show me an old Dad (>50) and I'll show you a boy who has developmental issues.

Show me a 50+ couplewith kids less than 10 YO and I'll show you people who are just knackered.

Then you get to the cost of IVF.

Compare and contrast a 35+ woman trying to get knocked up (thermometer, ovulation cycles, acupuncture, IVF) to a chubby 17 yo getting knocked up round the back of Wetherspoons on her first sh.g and failure to 'withdraw' quick enough.

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HOLA448

If you have kids today then your going to face 3 options when they grow up:

1) you buy a massive house because they live are going to live with you until they are 40+

2) you buy them a vastly over priced house

3) you kick them out and force them to live on benefits

This is pretty much what keeps me on this forum. I've two kids and my ex wife and I put a pot of cash aside to buy them each a property. They're at university age and already there's a campaign afoot to buy now..."before prices move out of reach". Even though I don't believe south east property prices will fall that much, I certainly don't see much in the way of further HPI either, so as far as I'm concerned there's no urgency to buy. Let them rent for a few years and enjoy the flexibility that renting brings, only later, much later, think about buying.

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HOLA449

I strongly feel the UK is going to align with the rest of Europe and move to a contribution based welfare system. We don't really have choice if we want to stay in the EU.

Where is the political will to do that? Frank Field perhaps, but look what happened when he spoke sense to Blair! Might Miliband take up the theme?

Some in the Tory party might like it, but would they dare? On the one hand, they'd be admitting a major EU-bashing theme is entirely our own fault for having such a ridiculous system. On the other hand, they'd take a hammering from the left for being nasty to "the poor".

The Greens of all people have spoken of a Citizens Income. But would that replace *all* means-tested benefits, at least for the able-bodied? If not, it's just pie-in-the-sky and gains nothing.

Edited by porca misèria
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HOLA4410

Where is the political will to do that? Frank Field perhaps, but look what happened when he spoke sense to Blair! Might Miliband take up the theme?

Some in the Tory party might like it, but would they dare? On the one hand, they'd be admitting a major EU-bashing theme is entirely our own fault for having such a ridiculous system. On the other hand, they'd take a hammering from the left for being nasty to "the poor".

The Greens of all people have spoken of a Citizens Income. But would that replace *all* means-tested benefits, at least for the able-bodied? If not, it's just pie-in-the-sky and gains nothing.

There's a large structural deficit. Tax credits are a big contributor to it.

The UK choices are: we do the cuts and get a choice on whats cuts; someone else does and we have no input.

Frank Field still has credibility and political capital. Brown (who kibosshed Field, and created his own client state) does not have any left.

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HOLA4411

This is pretty much what keeps me on this forum. I've two kids and my ex wife and I put a pot of cash aside to buy them each a property. They're at university age and already there's a campaign afoot to buy now..."before prices move out of reach". Even though I don't believe south east property prices will fall that much, I certainly don't see much in the way of further HPI either, so as far as I'm concerned there's no urgency to buy. Let them rent for a few years and enjoy the flexibility that renting brings, only later, much later, think about buying.

This is where it has all gone wrong imo......putting money aside to buy your kids a property each....total madness. :wacko:

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HOLA4413

I'm not going to have kids, OH feels the same way. We'd end up at the mercy of the state, you need to be really quite well off to avoid that. We're just going to live our lives and have some fun. Most of those around me having kids are total pondlife. The middle class aren't bothering. Pretty sad but there you go, past caring now.

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HOLA4415

It's a real shame that older people don't downsize and allow younger people with families to buy their homes

However much of the reason for this can be laid at the governments door in terms of stamp duty, 20% VAT on everything and moving costs

My widowed neighbour downsized from a 4 bed house to a 2 bed bungalow and thought she would free up about £75,000 (she is aged 54 and still working)

By the time she had paid all costs, fees , removal vans , and the cost of new curtains etc at the new home she only free'd up about £48,000 and wishes she had stayed put

Also the house she sold had a new boiler and completely refurbed central heating system - it now looks like she will have to spend out thousands more in the new place quite soon to replace the boiler

There are many hidden costs to moving house that is why many outright owners stay put

We have lived in our house 19 years and personally I could not care whether it is ''Worth'' £375.000 or £10 It is no consequence to me as we hope never to move

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HOLA4417

It's a real shame that older people don't downsize and allow younger people with families to buy their homes

However much of the reason for this can be laid at the governments door in terms of stamp duty, 20% VAT on everything and moving costs

My widowed neighbour downsized from a 4 bed house to a 2 bed bungalow and thought she would free up about £75,000 (she is aged 54 and still working)

By the time she had paid all costs, fees , removal vans , and the cost of new curtains etc at the new home she only free'd up about £48,000 and wishes she had stayed put

Also the house she sold had a new boiler and completely refurbed central heating system - it now looks like she will have to spend out thousands more in the new place quite soon to replace the boiler

There are many hidden costs to moving house that is why many outright owners stay put

We have lived in our house 19 years and personally I could not care whether it is ''Worth'' £375.000 or £10 It is no consequence to me as we hope never to move

The hidden costs of staying in a house that's too big for your needs are pretty big too.

Heating costs alone can be huge.

Chuck in maintenance and gardening and you'll be quickly overwhelmed.

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HOLA4418

It's a real shame that older people don't downsize and allow younger people with families to buy their homes

However much of the reason for this can be laid at the governments door in terms of stamp duty, 20% VAT on everything and moving costs

My widowed neighbour downsized from a 4 bed house to a 2 bed bungalow and thought she would free up about £75,000 (she is aged 54 and still working)

By the time she had paid all costs, fees , removal vans , and the cost of new curtains etc at the new home she only free'd up about £48,000 and wishes she had stayed put

Also the house she sold had a new boiler and completely refurbed central heating system - it now looks like she will have to spend out thousands more in the new place quite soon to replace the boiler

There are many hidden costs to moving house that is why many outright owners stay put

We have lived in our house 19 years and personally I could not care whether it is ''Worth'' £375.000 or £10 It is no consequence to me as we hope never to move

'Only' £48k (double the average annual UK salary) tax-free for giving up two bedrooms she wasn't using anyway, what a tearjerker. Does your neighbour have any idea how long it would take the average working household to save that amount of money?

The real problem with older people downsizing to bungalows isn't fees and taxes, it's the fact that so many of them want to do it, they all have tons of cash from selling the big houses where they raised their families, and there aren't that many bungalows available. High demand meets limited supply and bungalow prices go through the roof meaning that all the equity the older people had been mentally banking for decades never materialises.

If the government reduced the fees and taxes associated with moving all that would happen is the price of the next house would go up by the same amount because all the potential buyers would have the same increase in cash in their back pocket when they came to bid and there is zero elasticity in supply thanks to UK planning regulations.

Edited by Dorkins
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HOLA4419

I get where Wurzel is coming from. Couples get to a point where they think "f*ck it" and have kids. I have a friend who was in a similar position. They work hard and will no doubt provide for their kids, but there's never a perfect time to have kids. You can get your finances in order, but it could all turn to sh*t at any point, with or without kids. From a state benefit point of view, your better off being reposssessed and made redundant with kids, so why worry about it. Agreed though, it could set a significant social trend.

Were are luckier than most couples I know who are my age, we have some security but then nothing is certain. My wife did not want to have kids in here 20's primarily because her mother had three in her 20's and missed out on a great chunk of life which she is now hoping to make up for in her 50's whilst wiping old peoples bum's for a living.

I would have liked to have kids back in my late 20's but reflecting upon it I am now much wiser, hare more security and time to raise a family and I am sure tat they will be better for it.

My wife won't is not planning to return to work again and will be raising the kids. If we have attempted this 5/6 years ago with a 100% NR mortgage and the pair of us both working two jobs then I can't have seen it working out so well.

I am not worried about getting the kids out of the home earlier (as another poster said) because frankly we have has a great 10 years taking many holidays, travelling partying whilst in our prime. In fact when i'm in my early 60's it would be good to have some company as I expect our parents will be dead and gone by then.

I was one of those who left home at 16 and left to fend for myself on benefits, I was given some great guidance and support along the way.

I pity those spoilt children living at home in their 20's and 30's who's parents with the best of intentions have ruined them and they are now fully dependent upon as an adult. Living in a bedsit with a fiver to last you a week until the next benefit cheque is due teaches you a lot more than living in the parents spare room and being given a big wedge to buy a house with.

Motto of the story is your kids will learn from their mistakes and find their way out of the gutter. If they can't then they were never intended to be the person you wished them to be. And I'm not saying don;t help your kids out I am saying "teach a man to fish", don;t give him a fish.

Edited by Wurzel Of Highbridge
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HOLA4420

In Britain you get free education, free healthcare, free nursery places (2.5 days a week), free money in child benefit and tax credits.

So other then rent which youll be paying anyway its not that much more expensive to have a kid.

Ha ha, tosh. Me and my wife have averaged £600/month childcare for the last 10 years.

All the childless couples we know live the life of Riley. Heck, the increase in the cost of holidays alone is eyewatering (2 weeks for 2 people off peak vs. 4 people at peak time).

The only people I know who have seen no negative effect of Children on their finances are benefits class.

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HOLA4421
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HOLA4422

'Only' £48k (double the average annual UK salary) tax-free for giving up two bedrooms she wasn't using anyway, what a tearjerker. Does your neighbour have any idea how long it would take the average working household to save that amount of money?

The real problem with older people downsizing to bungalows isn't fees and taxes, it's the fact that so many of them want to do it, they all have tons of cash from selling the big houses where they raised their families, and there aren't that many bungalows available. High demand meets limited supply and bungalow prices go through the roof meaning that all the equity the older people had been mentally banking for decades never materialises.

If the government reduced the fees and taxes associated with moving all that would happen is the price of the next house would go up by the same amount because all the potential buyers would have the same increase in cash in their back pocket when they came to bid and there is zero elasticity in supply thanks to UK planning regulations.

Indeed, or would a younger version of said widow have any hope of accruing such a sum doing the same job she once did. 2 years gross national average salary, that is a hell of an ask for many people unless you earn a very good salary indeed.

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HOLA4423

Indeed, or would a younger version of said widow have any hope of accruing such a sum doing the same job she once did. 2 years gross national average salary, that is a hell of an ask for many people unless you earn a very good salary indeed.

Those boomers will never be a to afford a house if they squander all their money on curtains and soft furnishings.

We didn't do that in my day.

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HOLA4424
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HOLA4425

'Only' £48k (double the average annual UK salary) tax-free for giving up two bedrooms she wasn't using anyway, what a tearjerker. Does your neighbour have any idea how long it would take the average working household to save that amount of money?

The real problem with older people downsizing to bungalows isn't fees and taxes, it's the fact that so many of them want to do it, they all have tons of cash from selling the big houses where they raised their families, and there aren't that many bungalows available. High demand meets limited supply and bungalow prices go through the roof meaning that all the equity the older people had been mentally banking for decades never materialises.

If the government reduced the fees and taxes associated with moving all that would happen is the price of the next house would go up by the same amount because all the potential buyers would have the same increase in cash in their back pocket when they came to bid and there is zero elasticity in supply thanks to UK planning regulations.

They live in another world about money and values. Argee1991 has repeated this many a time (below), as have others.... yet some will sell for lower prices into this market, and in the process reduce values for other owners. My brother and sister go without a lot to put £9K into savings each year.

Too few want to do it (downsize) - still complacent about money/values. Bungalows priced high for the most part already, but some are now not finding the buyers... and I've seen many bungalow buy/remodel to flips in recent years. Older owners are about to find there are very few upsizers left, for them to release their 'crummy' £50K - £360,000.

It is expensive to downsize. Moving down incurs all the moving costs associated with moving up. Selling a £1m property to move into a £600K property will cost over £40K when all fees and taxes are considered. In effect you lose 10% of the potential gain. I don't believe people are refusing to downsize, it's just that they lack any incentive to do so.

Cutting prices suggests to me 2-way effect, too few sellers at upper end, getting their money to pay super high downsize bungalow price.

Bought to flip to wadded downsizer - it's worked for some time... but upsizers drying up?

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html?prop=32167368&sale=1257064&country=england

16/10/2014: Price changed: from '£535,000' to '£499,950'

22/09/2014: Price changed: from '£575,000' to '£535,000'

Other...

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-44012822.html

Edited by Venger
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