Housing Benefit Fraud Case

[anonguest]

as someone who has never, other a brief four weeks post university student life many moons ago, I have had no experience/knowledge of the welfare state and how it operates in practice in the modern era (let alone even 'back then').

thus I have no way of knowing IF the following really is likely to be true and, hence, another representative indication of the failings of the welfare state - as features so often here on HPC by all and sundry moaning about its waste, inefficiency, etc.

to cut a very long story short......

recently heard, by way of second hand gossip, of person who has supposedly gotten away with HB fraud by simple expediency of lying about his true income from his full time job.

very simply this, apparently, has entailed nothing more than (1) starting a new job, then (2) from the outset requesting his employer to pay his monthly salary in two halves each going into a separate bank account, then (3) making a HB claim and showing only the bank statements for just one of those bank accounts! The amount thus claimed to be earned each month is sufficiently low to qualify for HB, etc etc. Claim accepted. Claimant now effectively living in heavily state subsidised housing, etc.

Only reason for posting here, rather than on main 'House Prices and Economy' board is because in this case I have not heard the tale first hand and so have insufficient information to know just how likely the teller is telling the truth, etc.

That said however someone pleeeeeez tell me it really isn't that easy!!!!!???? and I am having my 'leg pulled'????

Because IF it is true then I can feel the 'Angry of Tunbridge Wells' welling up inside me! and am half minded to break my own personal rules about not being a nosey busybody, and report this etc.

[Si1]

Report it. Even if you're wrong I doubt the govt are going to give you grief for passing on a potential lead

[anonguest]

Report it. Even if you're wrong I doubt the govt are going to give you grief for passing on a potential lead

except that reporting stuff willy nilly without accepting any personal responsibility to at least try and verify the likelihood of truth to a concern takes us all to an East German stasi type world that I would rather not live in.

You know that much publicised "If you suspect it report it" mentality. We just end up hating everyone, snitching in everyone and being scared of our own shadows.

Hence my asking IF the welfare state really is that simplistic and easily defrauded. Cos I aint got a clue myself!

[Si1]

except that reporting stuff willy nilly without accepting any personal responsibility to at least try and verify the likelihood of truth to a concern takes us all to an East German stasi type world that I would rather not live in.

You know that much publicised "If you suspect it report it" mentality. We just end up hating everyone, snitching in everyone and being scared of our own shadows.

We have legal due process

Ffs

[anonguest]

We have legal due process

Ffs

Only problem now, in this particular case, because I am not sufficiently involved in/linked to alleged claimant in question (and hence have near zero personal details to be going on with) I would have to explicitly 'chase up' this regaled tale and ask for more info.

IF and when any such confidential and private reporting by me did get chased up and result in conviction, etc....then it wouldnt take long for those concerned to at least include me in circle of suspects who could have spilled the beans, etc.

[long time lurking]

except that reporting stuff willy nilly without accepting any personal responsibility to at least try and verify the likelihood of truth to a concern takes us all to an East German stasi type world that I would rather not live in.

You know that much publicised "If you suspect it report it" mentality. We just end up hating everyone, snitching in everyone and being scared of our own shadows.

Hence my asking IF the welfare state really is that simplistic and easily defrauded. Cos I aint got a clue myself!

I would say it`s possible ,from the story you have told the only difficult part to achieve would be persuading their employer to split his wages in two and making two different bank transfer`s

I would also question using bank statements as proof of earnings ,wage slips are usually required but they can be purchased on-line so still possible

[anonguest]

I would say it`s possible ,from the story you have told the only difficult part to achieve would be persuading their employer to split his wages in two and making two different bank transfer`s

I would also question using bank statements as proof of earnings ,wage slips are usually required but they can be purchased on-line so still possible

Duh! I honestly didnt think of wage slips.

But, separately, at the risk of increasingly sounding like someone who has just got back from a round trip of the solar system.....that's a new one to me! Why on earth would someone want to buy wage slips!? unless you are referring to purposely requested fraudulent documents just like those in the know can get their hands on fake driving licences, passports, etc?

[Si1]

Only problem now, in this particular case, because I am not sufficiently involved in/linked to alleged claimant in question (and hence have near zero personal details to be going on with) I would have to explicitly 'chase up' this regaled tale and ask for more info.

IF and when any such confidential and private reporting by me did get chased up and result in conviction, etc....then it wouldnt take long for those concerned to at least include me in circle of suspects who could have spilled the beans, etc.

Well that's fair enough, I wouldn't bother unless I had either a name and our address in which case I would pass that info on and have no more involvement. I certainly wouldn't take active involvement

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Duh! I honestly didnt think of wage slips.

But, separately, at the risk of increasingly sounding like someone who has just got back from a round trip of the solar system.....that's a new one to me! Why on earth would someone want to buy wage slips!? unless you are referring to purposely requested fraudulent documents just like those in the know can get their hands on fake driving licences, passports, etc?

Ask Eric pebble what one might do with fraudulent pay slips...

[John51]

I'd say that there is less HB fraud now than there used to be. Common dodges were single mother with live in working bf, working adults living with a parent on HB etc. Occasionally there would be a 'haunted house' scenario with multiple people claiming HB for that address but nobody living there as it was worse than a slum.

Since WTC, there is, imo, less incentive to falsify a HB claim. Working guy with 'single mother' gf can claim WTC as a couple and only be a few quid worse off by being legit. Also, far more snoopers on the payroll now and draconian penalties for those caught.

The real scam was people buying sub £60k terraces and getting £5k+ pa in HB paid to them.

[Goat]

Since WTC, there is, imo, less incentive to falsify a HB claim. Working guy with 'single mother' gf can claim WTC as a couple and only be a few quid worse off by being legit. Also, far more snoopers on the payroll now and draconian penalties for those caught.

I think the current scam is single mothers doing part time min wage jobs, claiming tax credits but with a live in partner.

[anonguest]

I'd say that there is less HB fraud now than there used to be. Common dodges were single mother with live in working bf, working adults living with a parent on HB etc. Occasionally there would be a 'haunted house' scenario with multiple people claiming HB for that address but nobody living there as it was worse than a slum.

Since WTC, there is, imo, less incentive to falsify a HB claim. Working guy with 'single mother' gf can claim WTC as a couple and only be a few quid worse off by being legit. Also, far more snoopers on the payroll now and draconian penalties for those caught.

The real scam was people buying sub £60k terraces and getting £5k+ pa in HB paid to them.

WTC ?

[long time lurking]

Duh! I honestly didnt think of wage slips.

But, separately, at the risk of increasingly sounding like someone who has just got back from a round trip of the solar system.....that's a new one to me! Why on earth would someone want to buy wage slips!? unless you are referring to purposely requested fraudulent documents just like those in the know can get their hands on fake driving licences, passports, etc?

There you go http://www.wageslips4u.co.uk/payslips.asp

Would come in handy for the person in your story and many other ocations

[long time lurking]

Ha! Buy one wageslip at 14.99...for the forward thinking company

P

Or by three for for the forward thinking fraudster

[anonguest]

There you go http://www.wageslips4u.co.uk/payslips.asp

Would come in handy for the person in your story and many other ocations

Blimey! I can't believe that is legal? I would have previously assumed that, like getting 'replacement' car number plates these days, some documentary proof would have to be submitted?

A quick speed read of that website seems to imply one can claim any salary of choice is being earned (compared with reality) and they will just print that up with your own real Nat. Ins number, etc etc. I'm amazed that's allowed given, indeed, the scope for fraudulent use. Unless.....the delivered product is of such quality /appearance to make it obvious is isn't an original bona fide payslip, etc?

[libspero]

Blimey! I can't believe that is legal? I would have previously assumed that, like getting 'replacement' car number plates these days, some documentary proof would have to be submitted?

I presume that issuing pay slips can be done by anyone. If you started a company and wanted to pay a new staff member I guess there is probably nothing illegal about buying the stationary and issuing them a pay slip?

I presume the use of the pay slip is fraudulent rather than the creation of it.. though I'm not sure if the company named on it could bring some kind of case if they found out.

[long time lurking]

Blimey! I can't believe that is legal? I would have previously assumed that, like getting 'replacement' car number plates these days, some documentary proof would have to be submitted?

A quick speed read of that website seems to imply one can claim any salary of choice is being earned (compared with reality) and they will just print that up with your own real Nat. Ins number, etc etc. I'm amazed that's allowed given, indeed, the scope for fraudulent use. Unless.....the delivered product is of such quality /appearance to make it obvious is isn't an original bona fide payslip, etc?

Quality of products

All our pay slips are laser printed on Sage Payroll Stationary. Sage pay slips are of the highest quality available and are used by thousands of companies large and small in the UK!

So rest assured when you order replacement pay slips from us, You order from the Best!

The last line seems to represent the legal standing

[Jason]

WTC ?

Working Tax Credit.

I had to give that a few moments thought!