cybernoid Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 In response to the thread title, no, duh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Executive Sadman Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 i suppose given tax credits and Housing Benefit its almost cost neutral for the taxpayer as anyone on minimum wage will be receiving support. But its not cost neutral for business. The sensible thing would be to reduce employers NI in line with the increase to neutralise it for business aswell but as Employers NI is generally a hiiden tax on tax on Labour that very few recognise theres chuff all chance of the govt reducing it. To be fair to the coalition, i dont see how this increase is any more beneficial than increasing the tax threshhold, fortunately the popn are generally so driven by their ideology of left and right that soundbites are all politicians have to come up with, the logical and inevitable follow through of those soundbites are pretty irrelevant when the population cares about nothing more than dogma The left know psychology well. How the mind works. They know people seem to prefer the government taking half their earnings and giving half that back in 'tax credits' rather than just taxing 25% in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 It appears to be the big Labour bribe. I'm in two minds over this. On one hand I can't see how many people can survive on less over the long run. On the other hand, many starting up in business have to survive on less, and they wouldn't be able to justify taking on staff if that figure became too high. why don't they try stopping trying to micromanage stuff instead. you can promise £1 million per hour minimum wage but it's still only a promise if the people that could employ won't emply because the conditions are better elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 (edited) The left know psychology well. How the mind works. They know people seem to prefer the government taking half their earnings and giving half that back in 'tax credits' rather than just taxing 25% in the first place. jeraboam/rehaboam...it's in the bible. all been done before..even if you aren't religeous the bible has a few anecdotes of social conditions several thousand years ago.(false weights+measure= roman coin clipping = quatitative easing) so if you don't want it as R.E read it as history. it didn't end well for high tax/high regulation economies then either. the left probably THINK they know psychology well, but how many of the general public realise that the first modern communist country was actually the USA? the pilgrim fathers tried to set up a kibbutz-type system in the US when they first landed. half of them starved then the other half gave it up as a bad idea. nobody tended the field because there wasn't much in it for them personally,and they all thought it was someone elses responsibility in the collective. so crops went untended/unweeded and the fields did not produce good harvests. a couple of hundred years later the experiment was repeated by the jesuit reductions in paraguay. that failed too, but they are still trying to make it work,and it is still failing. ..only in the process of trying to hide the failure they employ brutal suppression techniques against anyone not in favour of the collectivist approach. ..and then you get more tax/micromanagement/regualtion and then the productive people leave so you have less revenue ..and then with less revenue comes harsher enforcement/regulation to distubite the shrinking piece of the pie "fairly", at gunpoint..or under surveillance ..and it eventually implodes. IT DOES NOT WORK. Edited September 21, 2014 by oracle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@contradevian Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 (edited) The left know psychology well. How the mind works. They know people seem to prefer the government taking half their earnings and giving half that back in 'tax credits' rather than just taxing 25% in the first place. Well this is why you wouldn't make a good politician/economist. Gross incomes are used to calculate mortgage amounts, and when you get some of it handed back through tax credits and other benefits, its added again! Kerching! You can really leverage up on your 'virtual income.' Edited September 21, 2014 by aSecureTenant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awaytogo Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 (edited) It appears to be the big Labour bribe. I'm in two minds over this. On one hand I can't see how many people can survive on less over the long run. On the other hand, many starting up in business have to survive on less, and they wouldn't be able to justify taking on staff if that figure became too high. What we have to remember they are talking about a rise over 5 years, also many families who at present get tax credits would lose some of the tax credit so may not be any better off, Some Industry would probably lose work to third world countries as costs would go up. Single people and people who do not get credits would be better off which would be a good thing as the benefit system seems to leave these people behind. Edited September 21, 2014 by awaytogo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHorseWaits-NoMore Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Wow by 2020 £8/hr! In favour but is this such a big deal, FFS more reordering of the deckchairs on the Titanic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doomed Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 They have got away with treating the people like fools for a long time so they believe that daft statements like this one are sufficient. Unfortunately at present they are probably correct, but slowly I believe more people are waking up to the game they are playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Working on 2.5% to 3% inflation per year......things can only go up....wonder what house prices and rents will do over that time....the kind of stuff these wages will have to be paying for? Wow by 2020 £8/hr! In favour but is this such a big deal, FFS more reordering of the deckchairs on the Titanic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damik Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I'm not convinced self build alone will achieve the hundreds of thousands of new homes we need each year to be frank. I think we'd get a quick surge (like we did for a few years in private house building when state building stopped) and then it would die back. We need whole new areas/towns to pop up and that won't happen quickly without the state doing it sadly. If it did happen without state support it's completely unprecedented. I'm not advocating the state building homes for those on benefits either. Let them build and sell cheaply for professionals currently priced out first. Either way since state building stopped the housing benefit bill has gone up 300%. I'd consider more houses the lesser of two evils. Private sector builders in Europe build houses on people plots. It is quite normal. You just pay for the building. Not the market value of the house ... I am suprised, how the UK is so backwards .... Same with before and after school clubs for cheap child care (£70 pm). Something is wrong in UK ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Goggles Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Raising the minimum wage reduces the cost of tax credits. So long as they don't raise it above where tax credits currently get you it won't be inflationary. But 8 quid by 2020 is sod all even by these standards. A better interventionalist leftwing approach to raising living standards of the low paid would be rent controls. The left are even rubbish at being lefties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybernoid Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 A better interventionalist leftwing approach to raising living standards of the low paid would be rent controls. The intention has nothing to do with helping anyone, they want to win the election and will say whatever works with the thick majority. Like higher taxes for those earning 6 figures, ineffective but headline grabbing. Same as they ever were, pandering to the stupid for their vote and stabbing them in the back if they get in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 The intention has nothing to do with helping anyone, they want to win the election and will say whatever works with the thick majority. Like higher taxes for those earning 6 figures, ineffective but headline grabbing. Same as they ever were, pandering to the stupid for their vote and stabbing them in the back if they get in. Yes, politics today is all about proposing the policies that will sell the best with the electorate while ensuring that your changes make absolutely no difference whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjw Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Breaking news: they're now offering business rate cuts worth £1bn. Sweetener? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 (edited) Normally those types of promises to be reneged on would be offered at least a year before the general election but because of the Scottish referendum and all those associated promises/vows there's a backlog of general election promises/vows/pledges/guarantees etc to be ditched, broken and reneged on. Edited September 21, 2014 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifes a game Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 £50 an hour might help the economy especially those that are priced out of the property market. As long as everyone doesn't mind that we're all on minimum wage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renewed Investor Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 As a business owner, if the minimum wage goes to £8 then I am upping my prices by an almost equal percentage. Sorry, but the way I see it is they are not raising people up closer to my level but in fact taking me closer to theirs by upping the minimum wage. If they actually gave a damn about the poorest in society they would not support and promote run away property price inflation nor would they have a 20% VAT. VAT hits the poorest the hardest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corruption Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 As a business owner, if the minimum wage goes to £8 then I am upping my prices by an almost equal percentage. Sorry, but the way I see it is they are not raising people up closer to my level but in fact taking me closer to theirs by upping the minimum wage. If they actually gave a damn about the poorest in society they would not support and promote run away property price inflation nor would they have a 20% VAT. VAT hits the poorest the hardest. But as things stand the state subsidise your workers so they can survive, and they still would if house prices were to fall by 30-40%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpectrumFX Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 As a business owner, if the minimum wage goes to £8 then I am upping my prices by an almost equal percentage. Sorry, but the way I see it is they are not raising people up closer to my level but in fact taking me closer to theirs by upping the minimum wage. If they actually gave a damn about the poorest in society they would not support and promote run away property price inflation nor would they have a 20% VAT. VAT hits the poorest the hardest. If there's scope to do so why not just put up your prices now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve99 Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Its still not enough to live on by any sensible measure, unless you live with mummy etc. Also to note, all money that gets paid to the bottom works its way up anyway. The happiest and most stable countries are those with the highest minimum wages. Australia has one of the highest min wages in the world but 'They' are trying to devalue it by forcing the price of everything you need up, ie housing, elect, gas etc etc and then denying it with false inflation figures. Pre this era though I would have said Australia was one of the happiest and most stable countries in the world. Mean wages and rip off prices are a recipe for perma depression, The min wage should be a living wage and not have to be subsidised with govt handouts which in all reality are a sop to big business, ie you cant house yourself on Tesco wages, tesco can fill their pockets at the tax payers expense. Much better to have slightly higher prices all round if the real workers in the economy get paid a real wage. IT is also better for the rich too, more busines, less chance of getting murdered etc etc. Just check out the countries with no min wage , eg phillipines India etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybernoid Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 How about lower house prices? Anyone think of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Get rid of tax credits and employers will have to pay something approaching the cost of living or people won't be able to afford to take the jobs. I used to be very much in favour of the minimum wage but now I'm not so sure. It's not employers I'm worried about - the minimum wage is a pittance and if people want to buy UK labour they should pay what it actually costs someone to work for them - with our economy's high housing costs and high living costs factored in - which is a good chunk more than the minimum wage. But this kind of planned economy-style intervention in the market tends to have unintended consequences. Inflation has already been spiralling out of control and a move like this even risks more of it, leaving people effectively no better off anyway. We are one of worst out there when it comes to income inequality. We need a rebalancing of incomes. Push up the minimum does nothing for people's relative poverty and wealth - we'll all still be buying the same things, but with bigger numbers on all the price tags. This is about cutting tax credits without being nasty and cutting tax credits. If you get paid more you will be able to claim slightly less. This is very subtle and clearly flawed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olde guto Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 £8 by the end of the next parliament eh? Depending on what inflation is like over the next 5 years that would be more or less how high it would have to be just to keep pace with inflation. If the minimum wage had been £6.50 in 2009 it would need to be £7.57 today just to have kept pace. The living wage for the UK today is £7.65 (£8.80 for London). So in the big scheme of things £8 is trivial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBrit Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Very few people are actually on the minimum wage and almost no-one stays on it for very long. For example in the USA, only 2.6% of the workforce is on the minimum wage: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-minimum-wage/ It is mostly young people who are on the minimum wage. Minimum wage restricts people from getting into the labor force by making it illegal for businesses to hire people with low skills on low wages. Very sad. Another way to look at the minimum wage: If you want to reduce the amount of cheap alcohol people buy, put a minimum price on alcohol. If you want to restrict the number of low skilled workers businesses hire, put a minimum wage in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bankstersparadise Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Very few people are actually on the minimum wage and almost no-one stays on it for very long. For example in the USA, only 2.6% of the workforce is on the minimum wage: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-minimum-wage/ It is mostly young people who are on the minimum wage. Minimum wage restricts people from getting into the labor force by making it illegal for businesses to hire people with low skills on low wages. Very sad. Another way to look at the minimum wage: If you want to reduce the amount of cheap alcohol people buy, put a minimum price on alcohol. If you want to restrict the number of low skilled workers businesses hire, put a minimum wage in place. +1 Great example; for some reason people intuitively understand economics when talking about a price floor for alcohol. BUT get conned by emotive politicians when talking about a price floor for labour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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