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EmmaRoid

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My eldest child has just started year 2 in school, that's age 6, but apparently the neurotic mothers' club are claiming that we've left it too late to put our name down for the best tutors to prep for the 11 plus.

:blink:

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My eldest child has just started year 2 in school, that's age 6, but apparently the neurotic mothers' club are claiming that we've left it too late to put our name down for the best tutors to prep for the 11 plus.

:blink:

I think you left the punchline off.

Is it "so I said pull your pants up carruthers, the Bishop's coming for tea"?

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My eldest child has just started year 2 in school, that's age 6, but apparently the neurotic mothers' club are claiming that we've left it too late to put our name down for the best tutors to prep for the 11 plus.

:blink:

Sorry. Didn't make me laugh. I want my money back!

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My eldest child has just started year 2 in school, that's age 6, but apparently the neurotic mothers' club are claiming that we've left it too late to put our name down for the best tutors to prep for the 11 plus.

:blink:

My lad did his 11+ last weekend; I'll be another month till we get the results though.

I didn't bother with a tutor, and having heard the advice of one - "If you dont know, pick B or C" - I'm not convinced it would have been very good value for money. He has been doing practice papers every week since Christmas though, and took a mock exam in July. It's a crazy system, but you don't have much choice other than to play along with it for the most part.

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My eldest child has just started year 2 in school, that's age 6, but apparently the neurotic mothers' club are claiming that we've left it too late to put our name down for the best tutors to prep for the 11 plus.

:blink:

Is academic selection making a comeback in the next five years?

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My lad did his 11+ last weekend; I'll be another month till we get the results though.

I didn't bother with a tutor, and having heard the advice of one - "If you dont know, pick B or C" - I'm not convinced it would have been very good value for money. He has been doing practice papers every week since Christmas though, and took a mock exam in July. It's a crazy system, but you don't have much choice other than to play along with it for the most part.

My sister in law ran my niece through a tutor who somehow managed to train the poor girl to sit a maths multiple choice mock and score less than random. I never got to the bottom of what pearl of advice he'd passed on to help her achieve that.

LIsten to this guy on Radio Four - slays many sacred cows: uniforms, homework for little 'uns, class size etc. It's all about the teachers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04dmxwl

I was trained as a teacher in NZ by some devout Hattie disciples a few years back. A lot of what he says he based on hard research and seems to work out in practice. In fairness to teachers, it's not necessarily the teachers as such but how they've been trained. Good behaviour management skills are key and they don't necessarily come easy.

A few caveats though, yes, a decent, well-trained teacher can achieve similar outcomes with a class of 35 or 20. They might do slightly better with 20 but it's not necessarily cost-effective. Unfortunately, thanks to the admin and BS associated with teaching kid these days, the outside of class-time demands of a larger class can grind the teachers down over time.

In all of the classes I worked in NZ, all but one or two of the kids spoke English as a first language. I don't recall what Hattie has to say about that side of things, if anything.

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My lad did his 11+ last weekend; I'll be another month till we get the results though.

I didn't bother with a tutor, and having heard the advice of one - "If you dont know, pick B or C" - I'm not convinced it would have been very good value for money. He has been doing practice papers every week since Christmas though, and took a mock exam in July. It's a crazy system, but you don't have much choice other than to play along with it for the most part.

If it's largely those 'verbal reasoning' papers then IMO practice is the key. We were living overseas until our elder was 10 - she had just one term to prepare for the 11 plus. She had never even seen one of these papers before - her initial scores at her new school were around 45%. After just one term and lots of practice - the school made them do them every day - scores rose to 90% ish. And yet someone who was supposed to know had told us that practice would make no difference - the papers were to test 'potential'. Daughter did get a place at the local grammar.

Mind you I heard recently that one of the local grammars has introduced more old-style English papers as well. Seems that although a lot of their entrants had scored very highly in the VR papers, they were unable to spell or write a coherent sentence - the school had to do a lot of remedial English.

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If it's largely those 'verbal reasoning' papers then IMO practice is the key. We were living overseas until our elder was 10 - she had just one term to prepare for the 11 plus. She had never even seen one of these papers before - her initial scores at her new school were around 45%. After just one term and lots of practice - the school made them do them every day - scores rose to 90% ish. And yet someone who was supposed to know had told us that practice would make no difference - the papers were to test 'potential'. Daughter did get a place at the local grammar.

Mind you I heard recently that one of the local grammars has introduced more old-style English papers as well. Seems that although a lot of their entrants had scored very highly in the VR papers, they were unable to spell or write a coherent sentence - the school had to do a lot of remedial English.

You can certainly be taught those; I coached somebody (a friend, I'm not volunteering to be 8 year itch's tutor) on these and after a few hours she was getting two thirds of them right by understanding the right way to approach each of the limited type of questions, plus to recognise the occasional really tough one and skip it unless she has time at the end.

I hadn't looked at these for years and there were a small number of clear distraction questions, shoving in information you didn't need so leading you to analyse that before getting to the actual question at the end and finding it was irrelevant.

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It's all a myth about 'intelligent kids passing exams'...the relation could well be the other way around within limits of course.

Education, stimulation, opportuntiy, environment can make you more intelligent. And don't rule out the possible role for epigenetics for this to be cumulative across the generations.

Nice uplifting email received from Sal Khan yesterday with this link in it:

https://www.khanacademy.org/about/blog/post/95208400815/the-learning-myth-why-ill-never-tell-my-son-hes?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=All%20Users&utm_campaign=Sal%20Op-ed%20Email%20%28Students%20-%20Remaining%29&utm_content=Final

It's back to the range of intelligences. You work on what intelligences you think are important and primarily my own ambition plus good family support meant I was outstanding at academic achievement - passing exams.

However my emotional and social intelligences were practically retarded because all of my effort had gone on developing the academic side. I've certainly caught up the rest now but it took a while.

A good example is Christmas. If you think this just "happens" then you are missing the thought and preparation that somebody (usually female) has been putting into this for months. Step one is being aware of this, step two is actively contributing to this forethought.

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could hardly write me name back when I was 10. I recall some kid teaching me how to multiply numbers whilst I had been kept back at lunch time to do work I hadn't had a clue how to do.

Eventually once I reached secondary school I was placed into set 9 out of 10 sets. Set 10 to put it bluntly was reserved for the mentally handicapped.

Well my parents moved around a bit and I landed up in a different secondary school where we didn't have sets except for Maths. I managed to scrape enough GCSE's together to take A-levels.

during the first year of college I decided to leave home as things were not working out well with my step father. I dropped out of college during the second year then ended up in a meat factory packing meat.

I moved from one crappy job to the next during my late teens and landed back in the meat factory. Packing meat gave me a wake up call!

At 20 I enrolled my self into a engineering foundation year and several years later left university with a 1st class honours in electronic engineering and have never looked back.

From humble beginnings I have done quite well for myself and learned and seen that it takes motivation and energy which is something that can't be taught in a class room, that comes form life experience.

One of my best friends went to a private school good a good uni - complete waste of money because he is essentially useless and now stuck in a dead end job.

Much life experience can be gained at home from an early age, but it take a lot of time and effort from loving parents. Dumping your kids into a highly rated education system and hoping for the best is completely missing the point.

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could hardly write me name back when I was 10. I recall some kid teaching me how to multiply numbers whilst I had been kept back at lunch time to do work I hadn't had a clue how to do.

Eventually once I reached secondary school I was placed into set 9 out of 10 sets. Set 10 to put it bluntly was reserved for the mentally handicapped.

Well my parents moved around a bit and I landed up in a different secondary school where we didn't have sets except for Maths. I managed to scrape enough GCSE's together to take A-levels.

during the first year of college I decided to leave home as things were not working out well with my step father. I dropped out of college during the second year then ended up in a meat factory packing meat.

I moved from one crappy job to the next during my late teens and landed back in the meat factory. Packing meat gave me a wake up call!

At 20 I enrolled my self into a engineering foundation year and several years later left university with a 1st class honours in electronic engineering and have never looked back.

From humble beginnings I have done quite well for myself and learned and seen that it takes motivation and energy which is something that can't be taught in a class room, that comes form life experience.

One of my best friends went to a private school good a good uni - complete waste of money because he is essentially useless and now stuck in a dead end job.

Much life experience can be gained at home from an early age, but it take a lot of time and effort from loving parents. Dumping your kids into a highly rated education system and hoping for the best is completely missing the point.

Yours is what I would call the American model and I have known some people here who have done the same and done extremely well.

Essentially it is about allowing people to decide what they want to do in their own time. This means no academic hot-housing to get exams at a certain age but a more relaxed take your time attitude. Schools and even colleges aren't that academic and the social / sports / enjoy it way of life is actively encouraged.

Once you leave however you are funding yourself with menial jobs until you see something that you really want to go for (admittedly some never do) and at that point your motivation is sky high and you will do extremely well, as you for one have done.

IMHO this is better for the economy and for personal development.

For instance I had a big "why am I doing this?" crisis in my first year of college because I had aimed for the top degree at the top uni without, to be honest, being over-concerned about what that would mean on a daily basis. So like getting a much-prized rare entry into the London Marathon but no real desire to actually run the race. I didn't make a huge radical change like leaving but I did have long long thinks about what actually interested me such that I could happily study it and enjoy it and changed courses, vastly improving my enjoyment and well-being.

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Sorry. Didn't make me laugh. I want my money back!

Tough audience. How do you get a sweet little 80-year-old lady to say the F word? Get another sweet little 80-year-old lady to yell “BINGO!”

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If it's largely those 'verbal reasoning' papers then IMO practice is the key. We were living overseas until our elder was 10 - she had just one term to prepare for the 11 plus. She had never even seen one of these papers before - her initial scores at her new school were around 45%. After just one term and lots of practice - the school made them do them every day - scores rose to 90% ish. And yet someone who was supposed to know had told us that practice would make no difference - the papers were to test 'potential'. Daughter did get a place at the local grammar.

Mind you I heard recently that one of the local grammars has introduced more old-style English papers as well. Seems that although a lot of their entrants had scored very highly in the VR papers, they were unable to spell or write a coherent sentence - the school had to do a lot of remedial English.

The 11+ exam in my area does have a verbal reasoning section; it also has English comprehension and grammar, maths and non-verbal reasoning sections. My lad tells me that the comprehension was about self-driving cars and that he actually found it quite interesting, so that was a bonus; he had been dreading getting some piece of poetry to analyse.

There is a strange disconnect as regards advice on 11+ preparation. The official line is that children shouldn't practice for it, and this is duly relayed to parents by the teachers, but with a lot of nudging and winking. In actual fact, it is quite obvious that children who practice will get higher scores, and almost all the children taking the test have practiced to some extent. I took the middle line with my lad - giving him some practice and making sure he was familiar with the format but not having him formally tutored for it.

A further complication is that the local comprehensive is extremely good, one of the best in the country, with modern buildings, excellent teachers, and a highly dedicated headmaster. Also, my lad would actually much prefer to go there than to the rather stuffy, single-sex grammar school, and I can't say that I blame him really. If he does pass the 11+, there's going to be quite a bit of head-scratching when it comes to deciding whether to actually go for the grammar school or not.

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Guest eight

Is academic selection making a comeback in the next five years?

That was my first thought. I have a vague impression of what an 11-plus is but thought it had been phased out circa 1950?

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That was my first thought. I have a vague impression of what an 11-plus is but thought it had been phased out circa 1950?

It entirely depends where you live.

400px-Grammar_school_ballots_in_England.

Grammar school areas and groups as identified by the Education (Grammar School Ballots) Regulations 1998.[6] LEAs considered grammar areas are shown filled, while circles indicate isolated grammar schools or clusters of neighbouring schools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_England

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Guest eight

400px-Grammar_school_ballots_in_England.

I think I see the problem. The nearest one to me looks like might be in Harrogate or somewhere round there. Bit of a trek on a daily basis.

ETA: I actually read the link. It's in Ripon. Same applies.

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Guest eight

I think I may have it wrong re Harrogate still being a 'grammar' area. I can't see mention of it although it does mention Skipton and Ripon schools:

http://www.northyorks.gov.uk/article/26479/Selective-school-admissions

EDIT: I note there are 14 (free ?) boarding places on offer at Ripon if you're interested.

Do I have to start prepping now? Like the OP, my daughter has just started yr. 2. We actually live in County Durham but she goes to school in North Yorks. Oddly, the subject of boarding schools came up in the car yesterday. Maybe by 2019 the cost of petrol will make boarding the more economically sensible option? ;)

Although we'll probably all be living on the moon by then.

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Do I have to start prepping now? Like the OP, my daughter has just started yr. 2. We actually live in County Durham but she goes to school in North Yorks. Oddly, the subject of boarding schools came up in the car yesterday. Maybe by 2019 the cost of petrol will make boarding the more economically sensible option? ;)

Although we'll probably all be living on the moon by then.

Egg-******ing-xactly.

I'll give it some thought at the time but waiting lists for tutors 4 years out? They can ****** off.

And the whiny, ******ing harridan pushy mothers can ****** off again.

And thrice.

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