winkie Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 What you are saying is very warm and fuzzy, but lets look at the reality of a person/family on benefits. The state is giving them free housing + free food, etc. Where does housing come from: To make a house requires quite a few people to work really hard. The bricklayer, the dude chopping the wood for the beams, the digging of the foundations, the designer who drew up the plans, etc. Utilities are provided by yet more people working hard to run around town to collect garbage, lay water pipes and electric cables. Someone has to dig coal out of the ground that is burnt to make electricity. Yet more people are working hard to design and build power stations, etc. Where does food come from: A lot of people have to work hard to provide food. People working in the fields, planting seeds, checking crops for disease and harvest the food when done. Then lorry drivers have to drive long distances to get the food to the shops. At the shops people are working hard to pack the shelves, etc. Meanwhile these people on benefits are not doing anything to contribute. I don't require them to be perfect. What I require of them is give something in return for what they are receiving. That is all. Don't get me wrong, I am on your side in all this......what I am saying is over the last few years living wage jobs have been lost or turned into a job that requires state support to live.The state took the easy option of making it far too easy for people with low skills and or education who were inclined to take whatever was handed/thrown at them and got used to living with that......so what we got is flash the cash both increasing pay and conditions to the workers that want to work and improve their lot and also to those who over many years and sometimes generations have never worked....Gordon turned a blind eye and everyone was happy.....but now with fewer pay increases or no pay increases the workers are thinking it is the non workers that have taken their pay increases, pay them less, more for us which is nonsensical......you can also factor in the transfer of low wage workers from the EU and other countries that have vacuumed up any excess of low paid service work. What you also have to evaluate is do you create a job for the sake of a job, so as to force someone to work even though the job was unproductive and the money still came from the same pot to pay them, new jobs would be created that would have to be paid out of that pot to facilitate that....what net benefit would there be if any, more of a cost.......difficult to teach an old dog new tricks, better to educate the pups in the essential skills required to live an independent life not a dependant one.....number one personal responsibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qetesuesi Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I was a Tory voter then so yes I remembe. BCCI folded in 1991 and Barings in 1995. Your username suggests that you became a voter in 1996. I call bullsh**. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moedo12 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 If you are long term sick then the tribe should not expect you to contribute beyond your capability. I do know a guy who is in a wheelchair who does his 7.5 hours of office work a day instead of sitting at home all day. Respect. Good on him. Someone who's chronically ill, might decide to volunteer for say 16 hours a week. Maybe given that their state of health may fluctuate, full time or just regular employment wouldn't be suitable for them but they'd still like to contribute. One of the problems with basing everything around how much work people do and income they generate is that these people are immediately treated with suspicion by the public and this creates a climate of fear and people are discouraged from contributing. I know people who are chronically ill, would love to do a little work, maybe volunteering a little, but are absolutely terrified by what effect this might have on their benefits claim so they end up drifting into the background and fringes of society. This is because the government have a drive to get as many peoples off benefits as they can so a couple of hours volunteering is enough to say someone is fit for full time work, which is clearly ********. I don't think it would be fair to say accuse these people of being feckless and worthy of contempt. They're just trapped in a system which scares them from participating in society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Self Employed Youth Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 What you are saying is very warm and fuzzy, but lets look at the reality of a person/family on benefits. The state is giving them free housing + free food, etc. Where does housing come from: To make a house requires quite a few people to work really hard. The bricklayer, the dude chopping the wood for the beams, the digging of the foundations, the designer who drew up the plans, etc. Utilities are provided by yet more people working hard to run around town to collect garbage, lay water pipes and electric cables. Someone has to dig coal out of the ground that is burnt to make electricity. Yet more people are working hard to design and build power stations, etc. Where does food come from: A lot of people have to work hard to provide food. People working in the fields, planting seeds, checking crops for disease and harvest the food when done. Then lorry drivers have to drive long distances to get the food to the shops. At the shops people are working hard to pack the shelves, etc. Meanwhile these people on benefits are not doing anything to contribute. I don't require them to be perfect. What I require of them is give something in return for what they are receiving. That is all. What work do you do that is important to society, i.e. provides the essentials required for life? I worked in food production for a couple of years, producing enough food with my labour to feed 4 people for life. My grandfather built around 100 homes in his lifetime. Many of my ancestors mined coal. Producing much more and giving much more to society than many others. If I were to work only enough to produce what I'll consume in my life, I'd be retired already, under 30. Many on benefits have already given so much, that they shouldn't have to work again. Many in work, do work of no real value and don't put anything into society in return for what they are receiving. People who are unemployed should have a right to grow food and to build housing. They shouldn't be forced to work on the behalf of others for housing and food which takes very little labour to produce. People get rich from the supply of food and housing. It is not the builders, or the men in the field. They do not receive the fruits of their labours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gf3 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I'm going round IDS's gaff with a baseball bat. Can I watch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron78 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) BCCI folded in 1991 and Barings in 1995. Your username suggests that you became a voter in 1996. I call bullsh**. 1978 is my first born's birth year. (Don't worry... we didn't name him Byron). Edited September 10, 2014 by byron78 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gf3 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 It is not about rich or poor. It is not about where they are on the piramid It is not about what school they went to It is about their contribution to society. They take stuff, but don't give in return. Also, I said nothing about contempt. I said I understand if people feel anger. Anger is an emotional reaction that you get when someone takes advantage of you. In this case people on benefits are getting free stuff that other people have to work for. Feeling anger is perfectly natural given the situation. Wait a minute. There are a lot of rich people that get loads of money and don't have to work for it as well. Not enough money goes to the workers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron78 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Wait a minute. There are a lot of rich people that get loads of money and don't have to work for it as well. Not enough money goes to the workers Landowners in this country get more free money for having land, than the unemployed get for being out of work. Loads more. It's an obvious flaw in his logic, but for some reason the rich deserve their benefits (no... I don't understand why either). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBrit Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Wait a minute. There are a lot of rich people that get loads of money and don't have to work for it as well. Not enough money goes to the workers Are you feeling any anger against said rich people who don't work but just take? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBrit Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) Landowners in this country get more free money for having land, than the unemployed get for being out of work. Loads more. It's an obvious flaw in his logic, but for some reason the rich deserve their benefits (no... I don't understand why either). Are you feeling any anger against said land owners who don't work but just take? This thread is about people on benefits, that is why I am focusing on them. That does not mean I condone landowners getting free money. Edited September 10, 2014 by NewBrit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron78 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Are you feeling any anger against said rich people who don't work but just take? They don't make me angry. I suppose maybe Ian Duncan Smith. Not angry as such... i just don't understand a man who thinks it's normal for his in-laws to trouser 3K a week state-paid benefits because they own inherited land, yet is at war everywhere else. I really think hypocrisy needs addressing. Stop the 40 billion a year EU proxy farming sub swindles the rich enjoy, before we go at the sub-5 billion a year unemployed. It just makes sense, and would re-enforce everyone "all being in this together." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gf3 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Are you feeling any anger against said land owners who don't work but just take? This thread is about people on benefits, that is why I am focusing on them. That does not mean I condone landowners getting free money. Over the last few years I have had loads of money given to me which I haven't worked for. I have already used up my CGT allowance for this year and next year and the year after that. Unearned income should be treated all the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack's Creation Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Over the last few years I have had loads of money given to me which I haven't worked for. I have already used up my CGT allowance for this year and next year and the year after that. Unearned income should be treated all the same. Feel free to donate it to the treasury....there is nothing stopping you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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