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Another Careless Driving Case

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On the front page of the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-29064891

The story focuses on the fact that the crash was filmed by the biker, what grabbed my attention was the fact that the driver of the car was prosecuted.

Briefly, motorbike was travelling at 100 mph along a single carriageway road when a car turns right across him. The driver of the car was convicted (may have pled out) of causing death by careless driving, having simply not seen the biker.

My take on this as a driver is that seeing a bike travelling at that speed/recognising the speed is not something I would expect of an ordinary driver, certainly not 100% of the time.

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I particularly liked the bit where you can hear him shouting, "What?... No!".

Very sad, but entirely a situation of his own making.

Don't watch the video if you are going to be adversely affected by seeing someone's last moments.

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He had just overtaking a car probably doing around the speed limit and gestured him.

He took way too much speed into a junction where a trained driver with a sense of self preservation would have taken 10mph off the limit ( say 50MPH, off the power) and anticipated the actions of the other driver and thought of an escape route.

Failure to anticipate meant he more or less drove straight into the offender, rather than round the back of him.

Two crap drivers = dead motorcyclist.

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Failure to anticipate meant he more or less drove straight into the offender, rather than round the back of him.

Two crap drivers = dead motorcyclist.

Disagree slightly.

As a driver I'd look for a gap in traffic based on the expectation that the traffic is travelling at or close to the speed limit, I'd probably look 100 meters down the road. If something is coming the other way at close to double the limit then that's outside of what I'm looking for and I'm going to miss it. Is the average driver really expected to be on the lookout for deathwish bikers at 100 mph?

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Yes he was speeding but that's no excuse to kill him by putting a tonne of steel in his path.

50? 60? Mph to 0mph would have probably killed him too.

I dont see anyone making excuses.

Fact is, at half that speed, everyone would have had more time, indeed, the MC would never have been at the scene.

The art of defensive driving is to give yourself time to react to the idiot as best you can, driving into a danger spot at 1.5 times the speed limit is just stupid.

But hey, it happens all the time.

Just google Russian car crashes for some more antics on the Road.

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Disagree slightly.

As a driver I'd look for a gap in traffic based on the expectation that the traffic is travelling at or close to the speed limit, I'd probably look 100 meters down the road. If something is coming the other way at close to double the limit then that's outside of what I'm looking for and I'm going to miss it. Is the average driver really expected to be on the lookout for deathwish bikers at 100 mph?

we dont know all the facts. did the MC have his headlight on? Were there trees or sky behind him? it is possible the car driver couldnt see the MC at any speed due to natural camouflage.

The sentence on the car driver reflected the MCs lawbreaking also.

Do we know who the driver was? and what age, experience he had?

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As a biker I know his biggest mistake was going left.

If a car does that to me, I instinctively steer to aim BEHIND the car. It's saved me a couple of times.

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No-one is perfect and everyone will miss things occasionally with a first look, which is why pulling out of a junction it's sensible to look more than once. At that sort of speed it's entirely possible that the thing that hits you might not have even been there when you first look. I can't say for sure in this case because I've no desire to watch someone die.

Just hope it doesn't result in "Dangerous road! Reduce the speed limit! Spend a fortune on heavy ugly engineering! Treat everyone on it as idiots who can't be trusted and need to be lead around by the nose!"

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we dont know all the facts. did the MC have his headlight on? Were there trees or sky behind him? it is possible the car driver couldnt see the MC at any speed due to natural camouflage.

The sentence on the car driver reflected the MCs lawbreaking also.

Do we know who the driver was? and what age, experience he had?

True, but my point is at what point do we become careless? Are we expected to be machines, tracking every object for 1,000m in all directions or do we accept that even a good driver is going to misjudge things from time to time.

Is this really a case where the criminal law shold be involved or is this a mistake all of us could make and should be accepted as a risk of using the road?

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Disagree slightly.

As a driver I'd look for a gap in traffic based on the expectation that the traffic is travelling at or close to the speed limit, I'd probably look 100 meters down the road. If something is coming the other way at close to double the limit then that's outside of what I'm looking for and I'm going to miss it. Is the average driver really expected to be on the lookout for deathwish bikers at 100 mph?

If you watch the video and pay attention to the turning car, you will notice he took what I would call a "lazy" turn, not stopping, taking a lazy angle ( by that I mean almost driving along the wrong lane) and doing it all in what appears to be the most possible time.

He should have stopped, looked and turned across as quickly as he can. Those doing lazy turns tend to cut corners and even suffer a gear change half way through the manouvre.

I think his guilt was justified.

Here is a non gruesome still of the angle of the car just before...and you see what I mean

http://www.shockmansion.com/wp-content/myimages/2014/09/Crash1.jpg

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You expect oncoming traffic to be going at a certain velocity and plan for it on that basis. Maybe I'd have more sympathy if he been a little over the limit. Not at 100mph. Even a collision with a deer, not exactly rare in rural Norfolk, would have likely killed him. Idiot.

The car driver should be given a medal for stress caused him.

You think if he had blue flashing lights on his roof he'd be convicted of anything?

One law for them, one for the rest of us.

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He had just overtaking a car probably doing around the speed limit and gestured him.

He took way too much speed into a junction where a trained driver with a sense of self preservation would have taken 10mph off the limit ( say 50MPH, off the power) and anticipated the actions of the other driver and thought of an escape route.

Failure to anticipate meant he more or less drove straight into the offender, rather than round the back of him.

Two crap drivers = dead motorcyclist.

I have held a motorcycle licence for 30+ years and over that time have owned a number of high powered bikes.

Watching that video and the speed he was riding that bike on that road frightened me. Now way on earth would I have driven at that speed overtook those other cars as he did on that road.

Happy to do 130 down the M6 in the dead of night on a fairly clear road without the danger of oncoming traffic but not there and not then.

I used to do some things back in my youth which some people would consider real scary. Served in British Airborne forces and went on to do sports parachuting afterwards. As I said earlier as an experienced motorcyclist that lad was asking for trouble.

That bloke thought he could no no wrong, that he was invincible and it was his undoing.

The car driver may have copped to it all. He was banned 18 Months I think, large fine and awarded 200 hours community service.

All that said the speed of the biker was clearly a very major factor in the accident. If the car driver said he had not seen him at all he automatically commits a driving without due care offence.

Felt rather awkward at the end of the video knowing it was the chaps last few seconds on earth.

Well done the parents for releasing it though. It is saves at least one life it will have been worth it.

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If you watch the video and pay attention to the turning car, you will notice he took what I would call a "lazy" turn, not stopping, taking a lazy angle ( by that I mean almost driving along the wrong lane) and doing it all in what appears to be the most possible time.

I'm not sure I see that in the video, what I see is someone slowing down for a junction then turning, something I do every day.

He should have stopped, looked and turned across as quickly as he can. Those doing lazy turns tend to cut corners and even suffer a gear change half way through the manouvre.

He certainly wasn't cutting a corner there, the layout of the junction wouldn't permit it. Also your stopping then turning as quickly as possible is self-contradictory, you can turn far faster if you have some momentum to start.

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You expect oncoming traffic to be going at a certain velocity and plan for it on that basis. Maybe I'd have more sympathy if he been a little over the limit. Not at 100mph. Even a collision with a deer, not exactly rare in rural Norfolk, would have likely killed him. Idiot.

The car driver should be given a medal for stress caused him.

You think if he had blue flashing lights on his roof he'd be convicted of anything?

One law for them, one for the rest of us.

Take a look at the link I edited in my last post.

You will see what I mean by lazy turn...the other car was almost driving on the wrong side rather than crossing.

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Doesn't show much to me.

I would suggest you get some advanced training then.

That car was about 30 degrees off straight, when he should , at that stage of the turn, be closer to 90.

The reason he was in that attitude was that he turned way too early, and therefore increased the amount of time he was blocking the opposing lane.

You come across this all the time where lazy drivers cut the corner while entering the junction..Its happened to me on approach to a cross road or tee all the time. the other driver assumes they can make it and just take the lazy path.

Im not in any way saying the car was all at fault, as clearly the MC was just reckless and inexperienced...or maybe he never learned from many experiences always blaming the other driver.

Remember, you can NEVER criticise another mans driving.

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I would suggest you get some advanced training then.

That car was about 30 degrees off straight, when he should , at that stage of the turn, be closer to 90.

The reason he was in that attitude was that he turned way too early, and therefore increased the amount of time he was blocking the opposing lane.

You come across this all the time where lazy drivers cut the corner while entering the junction..Its happened to me on approach to a cross road or tee all the time. the other driver assumes they can make it and just take the lazy path.

Is there anything in the highway code or any other authority that says you should stop at a right turn or make the turn within a particular radius?

For me the radius of that turn is dictated by the entry speed, I see nothing there that I or any other driver would not do every day.

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Disagree slightly.

As a driver I'd look for a gap in traffic based on the expectation that the traffic is travelling at or close to the speed limit, I'd probably look 100 meters down the road. If something is coming the other way at close to double the limit then that's outside of what I'm looking for and I'm going to miss it. Is the average driver really expected to be on the lookout for deathwish bikers at 100 mph?

That sums it up for me.

I can't see what the car driver did wrong, they look and see that the road is clear and know, given the speed of the traffic, that they have plenty of time to turn right, "lazy" right turn or otherwise, in the gap that they can see.

The motorcylist, if they are going to drive at that speed, should know absolutely everything there is to know about evading collision and that clearly means steering behind the car.

I used to motorbike but gave it up because I recognised within myself a "don't back off" attitude which would not have ended well.

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Fair enough Guys, but I am giving you a free advanced driving tip, its up to you if you want to carry on failing to minimise the danger to yourselves.

The issue with lazy cornering is the time you are in the wrong lane causing obstruction.

People dont realise any of this until it is pointed out...Thats how I learned about it.

Cross as quick as you can...you know it makes sense.

The Police and the Court agree...This IS careless driving.

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Is there anything in the highway code or any other authority that says you should stop at a right turn or make the turn within a particular radius?

For me the radius of that turn is dictated by the entry speed, I see nothing there that I or any other driver would not do every day.

Why yes, to pass the driving test for right turns you need to:

For a right turn the same form of progressive braking applies. You should be slowing down to the same suitable speed, selecting 2nd gear (providing there is no oncoming traffic and it is safe to turn) and bringing your foot off the clutch pedal. All of this should be completed about 1 car-length from the corner of the road you are turning into. You should then turn when the front bumper of your car is level with the centre line of the road you are turning into. If you turn before this point you risk cutting the right corner of the road and could have an accident. If you turn after this point you could ‘loop’ towards the footpath on the far side.

On approaching a right turn you may have to stop and give way to oncoming traffic. All oncoming traffic has priority. You should not turn right in front of oncoming traffic if it would cause them to slow down or change direction. If you have to wait for a suitable gap, you should ensure your car is positioned straight, just left of the centre line with the front bumper just before the centre line of the road you are going to turn into.

Note, it doesnt mention LEGAL oncoming traffic...it says ALL

and this:

Turning right 179

Well before you turn right you should

  • use your mirrors to make sure you know the position and movement of traffic behind you
  • give a right-turn signal
  • take up a position just left of the middle of the road or in the space marked for traffic turning right
  • leave room for other vehicles to pass on the left, if possible.
180

Wait until there is a safe gap between you and any oncoming vehicle. Watch out for cyclists, motorcyclists, pedestrians and other road users. Check your mirrors and blind spot again to make sure you are not being overtaken, then make the turn. Do not cut the corner. Take great care when turning into a main road; you will need to watch for traffic in both directions and wait for a safe gap.

https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-junctions-170-to-183

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At the speed he was going I think even if he'd managed to successfully steer behind the car making the turn he would have gone straight into the next car on the opposite carriageway and their would have been multiple deaths instead of one.

The bike rider was obviously an accident waiting to happen but the car making the turn should have seen him.

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Fair enough Guys, but I am giving you a free advanced driving tip, its up to you if you want to carry on failing to minimise the danger to yourselves.

The issue with lazy cornering is the time you are in the wrong lane causing obstruction.

Disagree.

You're trading speed for angle, slow down and you can make the turn with greater angle but you're going far more slowly so you're going to be in the wrong lane for longer.

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