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Tallest Residential Building In Europe (docklands)

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The tallest residential building to be built in Europe is Ballymore's "Pan Peninsula" in London's Docklands (I think this was also mentioned by Dogbox a few days back). It is 50 floors high and has about 700 apartments. The sales launch was last Sunday and on the day they "sold" (reserved) 162 Apartments. These apartments are priced at the top end or above the level of the local market with One bedrooms (496 sq ft) in the current phase starting at £340,000 (without car parking) and rising to £444,000 on the higher floors.

162 apartments sold at launch or pre-launch is quite an achievement and shows that at least in London off-plans sales are alive and well. Although many of the 162 may well have been sold to off-shore and/or consortium investors at pre-launch prices (anyone who understands how these deals are done will know what I mean) this still indicates a very high level of confidence in the London residential market and runs contrary to the predictions of this web-site. This development will not be completed until 2009.

IMO residential property prices peaked in Docklands in 2001/early 2002 and there has been little or no growth in average prices since then. This has effectively meant a bear market for 4 years. Although prices are off their peaks in Docklands and, no doubt, some people have lost money over the last 4 years, it is mainly reflected in less ambitious asking prices rather than wholesale reductions across the board. Some developments have held up very well with each successive sale being higher than the previous whilst some developments have not sold well at all. The market in Docklands is not really reflective of the wider UK market as each major new development tends to set higher prices and new standards (the area is literally changing month by month) but I do think that London is generally ahead of the rest of the UK by 18-24 months and if a recovery is starting in London it may spread to the rest of the UK in time.

Rents are also increasing in Docklands and again IMO are likely to continue to do so. Many of the major companies based in Canary Wharf have very ambitious plans to expand/increase their work-forces and whenever the working population increases demand for rented property also increases.

Also in Birmingham Off-plan sales seems to be going well. This development sold out in 20 minutes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/birmingham/content/ar...e_feature.shtml

140 flats were bought by one investor (consortium?) at the launch

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Revival?

Deja vu: We talked about this yesterday with respect to Manchester's new tallest building (under construction).

Maybe it's the novelty value of a specific case.

Edited by megaflop

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I notice you don't mention yields.

Are any of these properties capable of becoming viable investment opportunities, or does this simply rely once again on the greater fool theory?

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London Docklands/from €335,838: City bankers who are expecting record bonuses in the coming weeks will be among those queuing up to buy into London's latest luxury development - a 50-storey apartment tower being built by Sean Mulryan's Ballymore Homes in London's docklands, beside Canary Wharf.

Pan Peninsula, a soaring neon-lit glass tower, will bring a touch of Manhattan to E14, which a recent survey named the richest post code in Britain. (can anyone confirm this?)

One-bedroom units in this first phase start at around €459,909 (£315,000) for a 49.1sq m (528sq ft) apartment on the third floor, rising to €547,000 (£375,000) for a south-facing unit on the 19th floor with the same floor area; a similar one-bed on the 25th floor is priced at €585,847 (£401,000).

With the docklands population set to double in the next five years - it's around 65,000 at present - there should be good rental prospects. Currently, rents in the area are between €375 to €450 (£256-£308) per week for one or two-beds.

Irish Times

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The tallest residential building to be built in Europe is Ballymore's "Pan Peninsula" in London's Docklands (I think this was also mentioned by Dogbox a few days back). It is 50 floors high and has about 700 apartments. The sales launch was last Sunday and on the day they "sold" (reserved) 162 Apartments. These apartments are priced at the top end or above the level of the local market with One bedrooms (496 sq ft) in the current phase starting at £340,000 (without car parking) and rising to £444,000 on the higher floors.

162 apartments sold at launch or pre-launch is quite an achievement and shows that at least in London off-plans sales are alive and well. Although many of the 162 may well have been sold to off-shore and/or consortium investors at pre-launch prices (anyone who understands how these deals are done will know what I mean) this still indicates a very high level of confidence in the London residential market and runs contrary to the predictions of this web-site. This development will not be completed until 2009.

IMO residential property prices peaked in Docklands in 2001/early 2002 and there has been little or no growth in average prices since then. This has effectively meant a bear market for 4 years. Although prices are off their peaks in Docklands and, no doubt, some people have lost money over the last 4 years, it is mainly reflected in less ambitious asking prices rather than wholesale reductions across the board. Some developments have held up very well with each successive sale being higher than the previous whilst some developments have not sold well at all. The market in Docklands is not really reflective of the wider UK market as each major new development tends to set higher prices and new standards (the area is literally changing month by month) but I do think that London is generally ahead of the rest of the UK by 18-24 months and if a recovery is starting in London it may spread to the rest of the UK in time.

Rents are also increasing in Docklands and again IMO are likely to continue to do so. Many of the major companies based in Canary Wharf have very ambitious plans to expand/increase their work-forces and whenever the working population increases demand for rented property also increases.

Also in Birmingham Off-plan sales seems to be going well. This development sold out in 20 minutes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/birmingham/content/ar...e_feature.shtml

140 flats were bought by one investor (consortium?) at the launch

absolute claptrap. And you know it. This development will merely add ballast to the crash.

The Isle of Dogs is about to take a shoeing. There's more people working as EAs there than customers.

These flats will make for the usually unpleasant social housing in 10 years or so.

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absolute claptrap. And you know it. This development will merely add ballast to the crash.

The Isle of Dogs is about to take a shoeing. There's more people working as EAs there than customers.

These flats will make for the usually unpleasant social housing in 10 years or so.

I said on a thread about manchesters new high rise beetham tower that in ten years time many of these trendy flats will be bought by councils as accommodation for druggies, teenage single mothers and life-long benefit scrongers. They're really no better than 60s tower blocks with a lock on the front door - worse, in fact, because back then they all had full size separate kitchens, balconies, large rooms all round. The 'executive' premium must be worth 75% of their value.

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The reality is that the cost is 340k for a one bedroom apartment this would mean a I/O mortgage of about 1500 quid+ a month.

On 3.5x salary you would need to earn 100k per year.

100k per year is 4 times the national average.

THe people that earn 4 times the national average may feel that they expect more than 496sq ft to live in. And I can't help but agree to be honest. This is about half as much as a victorian terrace for the so called working classes. 4 times the national average wage living in half a working class house? See my dilema?

So some people have bought at the top of a bubble, so what, to think that this is a revival or a new trend, well I just can't agree.

This may be a special case for special people who can afford to waste their money, but there ain't as many people working in the city earning 100k as everyone thinks.

Cut down the demographics to cover those people that have a partner, or friends that want to stay over or God forbid children and we can see the mess.

I wouldn't personally pay more that 50k for one, because I would need something else for the weekend, for a life, to get some fresh air.

Fine so there is 162 mad people out there. Let them be mad and as the Bubbster says, lets take their money!

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This may be a special case for special people who can afford to waste their money, but there ain't as many people working in the city earning 100k as everyone thinks.

These are purpose built for young city slickers to buy as a way of getting rid of their bonuses. In a way, its a completely separate and irrelevant market that won't affect the prices of normal flats or family homes.

Just a way of siphoning off excess liquidity from where it can be found.

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This may be a special case for special people who can afford to waste their money, but there ain't as many people working in the city earning 100k as everyone thinks.

correct! I had a tussle with Zorn about this issue a few days ago. The reality of people's earnings is rather more humble than certain headline stats would have one believe.

Besides, as much as commuting in London is a truly dehumanising experience, just how many high-earners working in/near Canary Wharf would want to pay for one of these when the same money would get them a much bigger place in a much nicer area still within 30-40 minutes of Docklands?

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Once again, this adds weight to the 'skyscraper' theory that big developments come just before a major downturn.

Thats exactly what i was just thinking!

EDITED:

There is a whole thread dedicated to skyscraper theory on here somewhere, was a couple of months ago

Edited by theChuz

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Thats exactly what i was just thinking!

EDITED:

There is a whole thread dedicated to skyscraper theory on here somewhere, was a couple of months ago

Did you find it yet?

I've not heard this phrase before. I take it it was coined in the US??

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Did you find it yet?

I've not heard this phrase before. I take it it was coined in the US??

I gave up looking after i done a search on skyscraper and didnt find it :lol:

I perserverd and use the search facility properly this time and came up with

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ind...7&hl=skyscraper

Edited by theChuz

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I notice you don't mention yields.

Are any of these properties capable of becoming viable investment opportunities, or does this simply rely once again on the greater fool theory?

I've no idea what the anticipated rents are for these flats or what they will actually rent for in 2009. I am not in any way suggesting they are a good investment or that the gross rental yield will support the current prices being paid, I am merely stating the fact that they are being bought in large numbers and this runs contrary to the common predictions of this web site. Off-plan buying is by it's very nature speculative (who knows what the market will be like in four years time) and many people buy off-plan with the intention of selling before completion at a higher price as this is speculative it may or may not turn out to be a good idea to buy these. However it is also common practice for Owner Occupiers to buy off-plan in Docklands though normally closer to the completion date.

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I've no idea what the anticipated rents are for these flats or what they will actually rent for in 2009. I am not in any way suggesting they are a good investment or that the gross rental yield will support the current prices being paid, I am merely stating the fact that they are being bought in large numbers and this runs contrary to the common predictions of this web site. Off-plan buying is by it's very nature speculative (who knows what the market will be like in four years time) and many people buy off-plan with the intention of selling before completion at a higher price as this is speculative it may or may not turn out to be a good idea to buy these. However it is also common practice for Owner Occupiers to buy off-plan in Docklands though normally closer to the completion date.

Beetham Tower flop

Read this thread. The Beetham tower in Liverpool is only half full. Meanwhile the Manchester one has been sold out off plan (well, deposits have been pledged or something, not the same thing). It means nothing.

Edited by FollowTheBear

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absolute claptrap. And you know it. This development will merely add ballast to the crash.

The Isle of Dogs is about to take a shoeing. There's more people working as EAs there than customers.

These flats will make for the usually unpleasant social housing in 10 years or so.

Which part is "claptrap"?

The part that the building is being built?

The part that the developer has sold 162 apartments?

If this is adding ballast to the crash does that mean the crash won't happen until 2009?

As I said, am I not suggesting these apartments are a good investment or even a good place to live but they are selling and at higher prices than has been the case previously for the location.

You are right about the EAs there are loads of them. At least 10 new companiees have opened offices in the Docklands in the last 18 months or so. More if you count second branches of exisiting EAs. But again I don't think this indicates a lack of business rather the opposite. Of course all business is risky and they all could be wrong but many were struggling for business in 2003 and are now reporting records levels of turnover.

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Pan Peninsula, a soaring neon-lit glass tower, will bring a touch of Manhattan to E14, which a recent survey named the richest post code in Britain. (can anyone confirm this?)

The E14 postcode that covers Canary Wharf has the highest average income level in the UK but you should note that very few people actually live in this postcode and it only covers a few of the more expensive developments in E14 so like all averages the figure is somewhat skewed by the sample.

Another recent survey of employees who worked at Canary Wharf stated the average annual income was £100k but again averages don't mean much when you have middle managers in IT earning £400k per annum and traders or managing directors earning £5mio-£10mio per annum.

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The reality is that the cost is 340k for a one bedroom apartment this would mean a I/O mortgage of about 1500 quid+ a month.

On 3.5x salary you would need to earn 100k per year.

100k per year is 4 times the national average.

THe people that earn 4 times the national average may feel that they expect more than 496sq ft to live in. And I can't help but agree to be honest. This is about half as much as a victorian terrace for the so called working classes. 4 times the national average wage living in half a working class house? See my dilema?

So some people have bought at the top of a bubble, so what, to think that this is a revival or a new trend, well I just can't agree.

This may be a special case for special people who can afford to waste their money, but there ain't as many people working in the city earning 100k as everyone thinks.

Cut down the demographics to cover those people that have a partner, or friends that want to stay over or God forbid children and we can see the mess.

I wouldn't personally pay more that 50k for one, because I would need something else for the weekend, for a life, to get some fresh air.

Fine so there is 162 mad people out there. Let them be mad and as the Bubbster says, lets take their money!

The reality is that many buyers will simply write a cheque for one of these flats so mortgages and interest rates don't come into it (I know of million pound apartments in Docklands that were bought as investments in 1999 that have never been occupied or sold on).

Many buyers would simply use an apartment like one of these for the rare occasions when they need to stay “in town” as opposed to returning to their main residence.

The fact that this development has even been launched tells us something about the state of the market. This particular development has been through numerous rounds of planning and re-planning switching from commercial to residential and back again a few times. The developer does not need to build. It is far cheaper to hold bare land than it is to hold a half sold 50 floor building. However they have decided to go ahead anyway. This shows that they have a very high confidence of selling all of the apartments and thus a confidence that the market will sustain the prices through to completion. The developer could of course be completely wrong (many have been in the past and paid the price) but given their enviable track record and ability to generate multi-million pound profits on an annual basis it is hard to argue against them*

* Oh I forgot any fool can make millions in a rising property market (they were just “lucky”) which is why most of the pundits on this board are billionaire ex-owners of property development companies – selling their stakes at the peak of course.

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The reality is that many buyers will simply write a cheque for one of these flats so mortgages and interest rates don't come into it (I know of million pound apartments in Docklands that were bought as investments in 1999 that have never been occupied or sold on).

Many buyers would simply use an apartment like one of these for the rare occasions when they need to stay “in town” as opposed to returning to their main residence.

The fact that this development has even been launched tells us something about the state of the market. This particular development has been through numerous rounds of planning and re-planning switching from commercial to residential and back again a few times. The developer does not need to build. It is far cheaper to hold bare land than it is to hold a half sold 50 floor building. However they have decided to go ahead anyway. This shows that they have a very high confidence of selling all of the apartments and thus a confidence that the market will sustain the prices through to completion. The developer could of course be completely wrong (many have been in the past and paid the price) but given their enviable track record and ability to generate multi-million pound profits on an annual basis it is hard to argue against them*

* Oh I forgot any fool can make millions in a rising property market (they were just “lucky”) which is why most of the pundits on this board are billionaire ex-owners of property development companies – selling their stakes at the peak of course.

Dear oh dear :lol::lol:

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  • 302 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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