Boomers Get Severe Haircut

[or in excess of]

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/PL19-9FD.html?backListLink=%2Fproperty-for-sale%2Ffind.html%3FlocationIdentifier%3DPOSTCODE%255E3783312%26minPrice%3D140000%26maxPrice%3D175000%26minBedrooms%3D2%26radius%3D0.5

[Wurzel Of Highbridge]

Buying flats in the middle of nowhere where there there is thoudands of acres of empty land is never a good idea. Look at Ireland, Span, Usa, Devon etc..

And lets face it Tavistock is in the middle of nowhere, prices there are tied to earnings.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Wurzel Of Highbridge

[winkie]

To be honest why should an owner of one property care what it is worth whilst they are living in it....dead money.....the ones that have the potential to lose the most are the ones that will inherit something worth £2.50.

[porca misèria]

That's retirement flats. No boomers making those losses, it's their parents.

They overlook a car park and recycling centre: every time I went to the bottle bank I thought the noise of glass bottles being thrown into a big echoey metal box all day reason enough to treat the flats as bargepole territory. And then there's the skateboard park ...

[edit to add] Oh, and I'm sure those 2008 prices aren't real. The builder will have offered an incentive, like paying over the odds for the old dears' old houses.

Edited August 8, 2014 by porca misèria

[Venger]

So if they are retirement apartments, fewer downsizers putting these retirement apartments under price pressure? Seen big drops in such places in South Manchester too. Holding on and not selling their main homes for less than it's worth?

Good old Tavistock, middle of nowhere? I'm glad I'm not in retirement age, running a B&B. (Property Snakes & Ladders). Forgive me but I'm always going to mention this on any Tavistock thread. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-28814346.html?premiumA=true

[porca misèria]

So if they are retirement apartments, fewer downsizers putting these retirement apartments under price pressure? Seen big drops in such places in South Manchester too. Holding on and not selling their main homes for less than it's worth?

Good old Tavistock, middle of nowhere? I'm glad I'm not in retirement age, running a B&B. (Property Snakes & Ladders). Forgive me but I'm always going to mention this on any Tavistock thread. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-28814346.html?premiumA=true

Something wrong with rightmove there. That place got split up years ago: it's now several posh, overpriced homes.

[Mrs Bear]

So if they are retirement apartments, fewer downsizers putting these retirement apartments under price pressure? Seen big drops in such places in South Manchester too. Holding on and not selling their main homes for less than it's worth?

Good old Tavistock, middle of nowhere? I'm glad I'm not in retirement age, running a B&B. (Property Snakes & Ladders). Forgive me but I'm always going to mention this on any Tavistock thread. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-28814346.html?premiumA=true

Retirement flats are very often difficult to sell no matter where they are, and will often sell at a loss. For a start it is a very restricted market, and the service/maintenance charges are often sky high, which is more than enough to put many buyers off, but they will still need to be paid on the empty place after someone has died or gone into a care home. Anyone with elderly relatives contemplating such a move should be very aware of the downsides.

[Venger]

Something wrong with rightmove there. That place got split up years ago: it's now several posh, overpriced homes.

All (or most?) of which appear to be on the market. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?searchType=SALE&locationIdentifier=POSTCODE^667768

Retirement flats are very often difficult to sell no matter where they are, and will often sell at a loss. For a start it is a very restricted market, and the service/maintenance charges are often sky high, which is more than enough to put many buyers off, but they will still need to be paid on the empty place after someone has died or gone into a care home. Anyone with elderly relatives contemplating such a move should be very aware of the downsides.

I accept that, but occasionally some might be good value for downsizers? Checking on the postcode http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?searchType=SALE&locationIdentifier=POSTCODE^3783312

And if you google-news 'retirement apartments', it seems developers are still pushing along with new developments. Yes those are downsides, but if we get a shift in older downsizers into the future, at least sellers should be able to sell on properties quickly enough, at the right price. Would-be inheritors have to accept the risks of their parents decision to downsize, if they don't get the inheritiance they expected.

Close to where I grew up, I see a developer has a rightmove listing to acknowledge interest in a new retirement apartment development (awaiting planning permission - "It says 117 people have registered their interest for an apartment."), and there's already quite a few blocks of retirement apartments around there. Others want to stop development. http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/stockport-thousands-bid-save-bramhall-6782505 We found some gear on that land back when I was in scouts as a kid - boxes with hundreds/thousand+ clipper-cards for bus rides, although I was late to the find, listening to Skip's instructions about camp craft or something, and only got 2 or 3 after pestering older scouts.

[up2late]

All (or most?) of which appear to be on the market. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?searchType=SALE&locationIdentifier=POSTCODE^667768

I don't think there have been any changes made to the structure. The seller wants 1.25m for the whole lot or will take 1.11m for the cottages sold separately. I think the listings are genuine, rather than being a RM error.

I remember catching part of a TV program about the station's conversion. Memorable because I watch so little TV.

[Mrs Bear]

Would-be inheritors have to accept the risks of their parents decision to downsize, if they don't get the inheritiance they expected.

That wasn't what I meant at all. These places can be a real headache if they don't sell when expensive care home fees are needed, and the charges still need to be paid.

[campervanman]

Most current retirees are pre boomers. In 2009 hardly any boomers were retired. If anything the drop in prices for retirement flats is good news for soon to be retiring boomers.

Edited August 9, 2014 by campervanman

[Democorruptcy]

Retirement flats are very often difficult to sell no matter where they are, and will often sell at a loss. For a start it is a very restricted market, and the service/maintenance charges are often sky high, which is more than enough to put many buyers off, but they will still need to be paid on the empty place after someone has died or gone into a care home. Anyone with elderly relatives contemplating such a move should be very aware of the downsides.

It's also because most of them are leasehold. This place is 125 years from 2008.

This is a McCarthy and Stone. The annual maintenance/service charges will be £2k+ a year. There are 4 on RM and none mention the charges... something to hide?

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?searchType=SALE&locationIdentifier=POSTCODE%5E3783312&insId=1&radius=0.0&displayPropertyType=&minBedrooms=&maxBedrooms=&minPrice=&maxPrice=&retirement=&partBuyPartRent=&maxDaysSinceAdded=&_includeSSTC=on&sortByPriceDescending=&primaryDisplayPropertyType=&secondaryDisplayPropertyType=&oldDisplayPropertyType=&oldPrimaryDisplayPropertyType=&newHome=&auction=false

[Mrs Bear]

It's also because most of them are leasehold. This place is 125 years from 2008.

This is a McCarthy and Stone. The annual maintenance/service charges will be £2k+ a year. There are 4 on RM and none mention the charges... something to hide?

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?searchType=SALE&locationIdentifier=POSTCODE^3783312&insId=1&radius=0.0&displayPropertyType=&minBedrooms=&maxBedrooms=&minPrice=&maxPrice=&retirement=&partBuyPartRent=&maxDaysSinceAdded=&_includeSSTC=on&sortByPriceDescending=&primaryDisplayPropertyType=&secondaryDisplayPropertyType=&oldDisplayPropertyType=&oldPrimaryDisplayPropertyType=&newHome=&auction=false

I suppose they hope people won't ask or realise until it's too late...

A lot of EAs don't mention service or maintenance charges. I have also known several who haven't had clue about the length of a lease, and have appeared to think it's a minor detail, like the colour of the front door.

[Mrs Bear]

Most current retirees are pre boomers. In 2009 hardly any boomers were retired. If anything the drop in prices for retirement flats is good news for soon to be retiring boomers.

I don't think most newly retired people would think of moving into the average retirement flat. It's more when people are quite a bit older and beginning to get a bit doddery, or are worried about getting doddery, and very often after they have been widowed.

I looked at several with my mother when she started (mid 70s ish) talking of moving to a 'little flat'. But they were all wrong for some reason. Too pokey, windows too small or too high to see out of when you were sitting down, or overlooking a car park, no room for a dishwasher (she was very indignant when the EA said 'They didn't think old people would want them'), etc. In any case she had already very sensibly downsized once, after my father died. She stayed in her first downsize until she had to go into a care home at 89. And is still there at 96...

[Venger]

That wasn't what I meant at all. These places can be a real headache if they don't sell when expensive care home fees are needed, and the charges still need to be paid.

Ok - but it's a balance.

They may be downsizing from a larger home that is costly to heat/run/maintain. £2,000 a year charges is a balance, and in many instances, doesn't seem so bad to me when I look at older owners rambling around in homes the neighbours all think are worth half-a-million pounds+.

Such downsizers can easily cover such fees, and at times there can be value now for buyers. Other residents/facilities older people, less loneliness, feeling more secure. Your standard house sits empty when expensive care home fees are suddenly needed (unless owners prepared to sell it at a price that attracts market interest), but I suppose there are more options, for renting it out, rather than selling it for less than it's worth? Although I did suggest to someone they rent a retirement apartment rather than buy it.

...consists of 51 apartments arranged over three floors each served by a lift. The apartments consist of one or two bedrooms, entrance hall, lounge/dining room, fitted kitchen, bathroom and balconies to selected apartments. The House Manager can be contacted from various points within each property in the case of an emergency. For periods when the House Manager is off duty there is a 24 hour emergency Careline response system. It is a condition of purchase that residents be over the age of 55 years.

I can see it from your position when it's a downsize from a home not worth very much. Then again there are cheaper retirement apartments in some areas.

With regards inheritors, I was thinking of a hpc thread of earlier this year, which seemed to get deleted within a week, after hpcers gave some criticisim of their position. I think they've finally sold it for what it is worth. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-44421533.html

Retirement home ground house inheritors can't sell, 6 years.."Pay Us What It's Worth"

Edited August 9, 2014 by Venger

[Mrs Bear]

Ok - but it's a balance.

They may be downsizing from a larger home that is costly to heat/run/maintain. £2,000 a year charges is a balance, and in many instances, doesn't seem so bad to me when I look at older owners rambling around in homes the neighbours all think are worth half-a-million pounds+.

Such downsizers can easily cover such fees, and at times there can be value now for buyers. Other residents/facilities older people, less loneliness, feeling more secure. Your standard house sits empty when expensive care home fees are suddenly needed (unless owners prepared to sell it at a price that attracts market interest), but I suppose there are more options, for renting it out, rather than selling it for less than it's worth? Although I did suggest to someone they rent a retirement apartment rather than buy it.

I can see it from your position when it's a downsize from a home not worth very much. Then again there are cheaper retirement apartments in some areas.

With regards inheritors, I was thinking of a hpc thread of earlier this year, which seemed to get deleted within a week, after hpcers gave some criticisim of their position. I think they've finally sold it for what it is worth. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-44421533.html

Retirement home ground house inheritors can't sell, 6 years.."Pay Us What It's Worth"

Are you perchance a salesperson for McCarthy & Stone? ;-)

I agree that renting one of these would often be the best option, but they are so rarely available. I know of people who would love to be able to help an elderly relative rent one, but the only such properties for rental are usually either HA or LA owned, with long waiting lists, and apparently you often need a referral from social services, too. And not every elderly person who would benefit from this type of accomm wants a social worker asking a lot of intrusive questions to 'assess their needs'.

[Venger]

Are you perchance a salesperson for McCarthy & Stone? ;-)

I agree that renting one of these would often be the best option, but they are so rarely available. I know of people who would love to be able to help an elderly relative rent one, but the only such properties for rental are usually either HA or LA owned, with long waiting lists, and apparently you often need a referral from social services, too. And not every elderly person who would benefit from this type of accomm wants a social worker asking a lot of intrusive questions to 'assess their needs'.

1. No, but unless there are things I still don't know (including perhaps how high can they ramp charges?), I would do so with a clear conscience. My main position that we don't have as much of a housing shortage problem in the UK as some would have us believe - although I'd like to see many more independent builders/self-builders and lower land costs... not HTB favoured developers and 0.5% QE supported land prices. One the radio a few weeks ago they were outlining the extent of the increase projected for over 65s by 2025.

We have a lot of older owners rattling around in family homes - which of couse - they're fully entitled to do. Yet I don't want to hear moaning from such older owners, claiming Winter Fuel Allowance etc, about energy and living costs, 'having no money', when they're in homes they can sell for £650,000+. If we do get any hpc, they need somewhere to live, and perhaps more of them would be inclined to sell if hpc threatens what they think they are worth, what they thought they'd tap in equity release in the future.

2. There does appear fewer to rent than for sale, but you appear to have more knowledge than I about LA/HA route - being reliant on them sounds like when older person doesn't have much money to put in themselves. I've seen a few private rentals in the past, where it seems the owner has died, or gone into care, and they "can't sell" although risk they would serve notice to older tenant and look to sell in future.

From or in excess of's original link to sold prices, there's one 2 bed retirement apartment to rent within 3 miles.. at £550pm (is that unlikely to include any service charge?) http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-45503059.html

Or a 1 bed for sale at the same retirment place asking £89,950 http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-41778596.html

It's of some comfort to me, more retirement villages are now being developed - although I'd like the prices/charges to be reasonable for downsizers.

Retirement villages for the elderly helping to deliver high quality of life

THERE is no question that we need more retirement villages.

By: Andrea Watson

Published: Fri, August 8, 2014

The sellout success of almost every new launch is testament to that. In reality, it is probably time for the Government to listen to calls from the industry for new, more flexible planning rules when it comes to retirement properties.

After all, purpose-built new retirement villages, often with care homes at their centre, not only help to relieve local authorities of some of the demands placed on them by an ageing population but also free up much-needed family homes. Average life expectancy in the UK has risen to 78.7 years for men and 82.6 years for women, according to the Office for National Statistics.

Many of these older people are stuck in oversized, unmanageable homes that they would dearly like to sell if they could find somewhere suitable to live. The idea is that retirees swap older, high-maintenance homes with oversized gardens for hassle-free, modern architecture, giving them an easy life with concierges and care facilities on hand. The new generation of retirement village developers is addressing just this need.

in full: http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/property/496778/Retirement-villages-elderly-high-quality-of-life

(I know it's Express... there's loads of other sources on a google-news of Retirement Villages)

2014: Daily Mail Retirement Villages: The couple liked it so much they put their house in London on the market and bought an apartment there.

Guardian: Entire communities of new homes, built around central facilities offering medical care, community services and entertainment, are springing up around the country for the growing numbers of retirement-age Britons

15 January 2012

People over the age of 65 now outnumber those of school age in the UK, and soon a quarter of the population will be over retirement age. ...Just 0.5% of over-65s live in retirement villages in Britain, compared with 6% of elderly Americans (12% in some areas) and 5.5% of older New Zealanders. "The whole sector is still very much in its infancy [in the UK]," says Sanderson. But he believes retirement villages "will be the biggest thing in housing for the next 25 years."

Edited August 9, 2014 by Venger

[Democorruptcy]

Another option is to downsize to a park home.

One here for £115k that states:

"The site fees at Devon Hills for 2014 are £4,668 and this property enjoys the remainder of its 20 year lease."

So £115k / 20 years = £5,750 per annum (if it has 20 years and the thing lasts that long) and site fees that are already £4,668 so £10,418 per annum and rising just for a shelter.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-29416722.html

[Mrs Bear]

1. No, but unless there are things I still don't know (including perhaps how high can they ramp charges?), I would do so with a clear conscience. My main position that we don't have as much of a housing shortage problem in the UK as some would have us believe - although I'd like to see many more independent builders/self-builders and lower land costs... not HTB favoured developers and 0.5% QE supported land prices. One the radio a few weeks ago they were outlining the extent of the increase projected for over 65s by 2025.

We have a lot of older owners rattling around in family homes - which of couse - they're fully entitled to do. Yet I don't want to hear moaning from such older owners, claiming Winter Fuel Allowance etc, about energy and living costs, 'having no money', when they're in homes they can sell for £650,000+. If we do get any hpc, they need somewhere to live, and perhaps more of them would be inclined to sell if hpc threatens what they think they are worth, what they thought they'd tap in equity release in the future.

2. There does appear fewer to rent than for sale, but you appear to have more knowledge than I about LA/HA route - being reliant on them sounds like when older person doesn't have much money to put in themselves. I've seen a few private rentals in the past, where it seems the owner has died, or gone into care, and they "can't sell" although risk they would serve notice to older tenant and look to sell in future.

From or in excess of's original link to sold prices, there's one 2 bed retirement apartment to rent within 3 miles.. at £550pm (is that unlikely to include any service charge?) http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-45503059.html

Or a 1 bed for sale at the same retirment place asking £89,950 http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-41778596.html

It's of some comfort to me, more retirement villages are now being developed - although I'd like the prices/charges to be reasonable for downsizers.

2014: Daily Mail Retirement Villages: The couple liked it so much they put their house in London on the market and bought an apartment there.

Maybe I am over cynical, but to me, articles gushing about retirement developments (or any development, come to that) are more in the nature of advertisements than bona fide journalism. I dare say the developers ask the journalists to do a 'puff' piece, in the same way that authors or publishers ask other authors to do a 'puff' for their book, which can then go on the cover. And I don't suppose too many journalists will turn down work at so much per 100 easy puffy words.

[Venger]

Maybe I am over cynical, but to me, articles gushing about retirement developments (or any development, come to that) are more in the nature of advertisements than bona fide journalism. I dare say the developers ask the journalists to do a 'puff' piece, in the same way that authors or publishers ask other authors to do a 'puff' for their book, which can then go on the cover. And I don't suppose too many journalists will turn down work at so much per 100 easy puffy words.

Accepted, those articles are pitching it a bit fluffy like that, but there are some advantages to retirement villages in density (at the right price). I'm just looking at older owners hogging family homes (entitled to do so), that are now worth many hundreds of thousands of pounds. No so much the older owner in Oldham who has a terrace worth £90,000.

If there was any threat of hpc, it might bring out more older downsizers (many of who do look to their homes as wealth and know fully well what it is worth), who need somewhere to downsize to, and if that happened in number, allowing familes to upsize at lower prices, and older owners to cash in.

Instead some see a world where equity release more favourable for older owners, with locked in hpi, forever more hpi on top, - and more HTB newbuilds from the politically favoured homebuilders for younger people at high prices.

Aside from reducing IHT liability, it doesn't make much sense to downsize.

Moving from a £1million property to a £600K property costs £24K Stamp duty, £12K Estate agent fees (assuming 1% +VAT) and probably another £4K in various other costs. So that is £40K off the £400K "profit".

Those who MEWed in London in the last six years or so have done far better than those who downsized. Low interest rates have encouraged it. Now that may not continue indefinitely, but there seems to be little appetite from the UK government to increase rates.

Moving costs are a reason to not move no matter what level the downsizing is. Even with a crash to 50% of current values and the abolition of Stamp Duty, the fees and other costs are still significant. Two million may plan to downsize, but far less will do it. Moving home is pretty stressful, people are more likely to have made friends over a number of years where they currently live so why go through all the bother?

Even with no stamp duty the cost of moving is expensive. People may plan to downsize to release the value in the bricks and mortar, but rarely go through with it. Downsizing a property to ensure a married couple's assets are worth less than £650K is the real benefit for those who inherit the estate.

I see a future where mortgage deals will be available to people over 75, who will make the payments from their annuity/drawdown income or alternatively just take equity release as they still won't have paid off their original mortgage.

Prices will continue to rise in London for some time yet simply due to lack of supply. First house in ages in our area has gone up for sale, and I suspect will be under offer on Tuesday after the open day this weekend. Market sentiment, although irrational, is such that the buyers that are there are stretching themselves as they cannot afford to hold off on their purchase. It is also catchment area season where many parents realise that they have to move to get into a school.

Until people get kicked out of their homes, prices won't fall. I can't even see stability in the next six months.

[Mrs Bear]

We have a lot of older owners rattling around in family homes - which of couse - they're fully entitled to do. Yet I don't want to hear moaning from such older owners, claiming Winter Fuel Allowance etc, about energy and living costs, 'having no money', when they're in homes they can sell for £650,000+. If we do get any hpc, they need somewhere to live, and perhaps more of them would be inclined to sell if hpc threatens what they think they are worth, what they thought they'd tap in equity release in the future.

Well, I certainly agree about downsizing from large houses if people are short of money. I used to drive old people who were supposed to be unable to use public transport/unable to afford taxis to hosp and GP appts etc. Most of them were very obviously hard up, but there was one old dear I picked up from a very expensive house - would now sell for at least £2M. I told the organisers later that I didn't care to provide a free taxi service to anyone who could afford to live in such a house. The answer was, "well, just because someone lives in a big house it doesn't mean they've got any money.' Which of course is true, and sometimes such old people are just not able to manage the whole huge hassle of moving unless they have relatives to help a lot. But I still told them not to ask me again - there were one or two others who were quite obviously taking the P and thought a mug like me was good for a free ride. I wouldn't take them any more, either - there were many who were so obviously in need, and it was those who would so often try to give me a pound for my petrol.

OTOH the friend of an elderly neighbour of mine has recently been bullied by her son into moving from an extremely expensive house to a miles cheaper property far away, but close to her son, where she doesn't know anybody and frankly hates it. I suspect that her son has power of attorney over her finances and is up to no good, but maybe I am being over cynical yet again.

The thing so often is, IMO and from experience, that people often don't actually need or want to downsize for a long time, because their houses are not actually much too big or too expensive to heat. But by the time it would really be of benefit to them to move to a small place with a warden, i.e. they are getting doddery, is all just too much hassle and stress, never mind getting here and there to view and dealing with gelled EAs, and so often relatives nowadays are scattered and unable to help as much as would be needed, i.e. in many cases organising so much of it for them.

[acer]

Another option is to downsize to a park home.

One here for £115k that states:

"The site fees at Devon Hills for 2014 are £4,668 and this property enjoys the remainder of its 20 year lease."

So £115k / 20 years = £5,750 per annum (if it has 20 years and the thing lasts that long) and site fees that are already £4,668 so £10,418 per annum and rising just for a shelter.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-29416722.html

Plus, it says it's to be used as a holiday home, which normally means that there isn't planning permission for someone to live there continuously throughout the year.