Doctors Bringing In Euthanasia By The Back Door?

[crashmonitor]

The NHS is seeking to end the culture of prolonging elderly patients lives with statins etc and resuscitation interventions.

I guess this is one answer to the demographic time bomb which has increased the NHS budget by sevenfold in two generations in real terms.

I actually saw this in action earlier this year when my Great Aunt was let go at 97. she was suffering from dementia but wasn't eating so they stopped feeding her and she died five and a half days later....she was so strong that not many of us would last five and a half days without water and food.

I'm actually not that convinced that dementia patients have such a low quality of life......she was one of those that was actually enjoying life during her lucid moments and the screams etc. that younger people take as distress are probably no more than a two year old screaming. But I have noticed that the medical profession have pretty much lost patience with those that cling onto life and cost cataclysmic amounts of money running into the tens of thousands every year. So possibly a money call more than anything else.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/elderhealth/11003036/Elderly-and-frail-patients-should-be-allowed-to-die-says-cardiologist.html

[SarahBell]

Would you rather she have been force fed?

The later stages of dementia are horrific. If she had been spared some of that, and you had not had to witness the condition she existed in then be happy for her.[1]

[1] As happy as you can be that someone has died.

[Bossybabe]

Would you rather she have been force fed?

The later stages of dementia are horrific. If she had been spared some of that, and you had not had to witness the condition she existed in then be happy for her.[1]

[1] As happy as you can be that someone has died.

Agreed. When my father was in the more lucid, early stages of Alzheimer's, he said he wanted to take his own life. He was unable to do this because of the disease. In on of his very few lucid moments before the end, he said to me (with the greatest effort) "I hate this". I'll never forget the effort it took him to say it, or my feeling of inadequacy when I had to say "I know, Dad, but I can't help you". Knowing his feelings didn't help.

I'd like to think I can opt for euthanasia at that stage if I get Alzheimer's.

[crashmonitor]

Would you rather she have been force fed?

The later stages of dementia are horrific. If she had been spared some of that, and you had not had to witness the condition she existed in then be happy for her.[1]

[1] As happy as you can be that someone has died.

Because she was actually physically very strong (she survived five and a half days without food and water) I believe she would have wanted to go on. She had been in late stage dementia for a few years and had driven everybody, and especially the care staff, to distraction. Doubly incontinent, aggressive, totally bonkers...but in herself loving life and totally oblivious to the grief she was causing.

Some people want to die and others cling onto life for all they are worth.

I was pleased the NHS let her go, but was that for the rest of us and not for her.

[Executive Sadman]

The NHS is seeking to end the culture of prolonging elderly patients lives with statins etc and resuscitation interventions.

I guess this is one answer to the demographic time bomb which has increased the NHS budget by sevenfold in two generations in real terms.

I actually saw this in action earlier this year when my Great Aunt was let go at 97. she was suffering from dementia but wasn't eating so they stopped feeding her and she died five and a half days later....she was so strong that not many of us would last five and a half days without water and food.

I'm actually not that convinced that dementia patients have such a low quality of life......she was one of those that was actually enjoying life during her lucid moments and the screams etc. that younger people take as distress are probably no more than a two year old screaming. But I have noticed that the medical profession have pretty much lost patience with those that cling onto life and cost cataclysmic amounts of money running into the tens of thousands every year. So possibly a money call more than anything else.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/elderhealth/11003036/Elderly-and-frail-patients-should-be-allowed-to-die-says-cardiologist.html

Same with my granny. Died recently through basically starving to death. What was disgusting is the nursing staff forgot to refill her morphine drip. After a few days of being asleep, no food or drink and being doped up, she awoke in absolute agony, and died shortly after. I wasnt there but my mum was and said it was traumatic to say the least. Nurses were too busy watching jeremy kyle in the lounge area to hear the alarm. Utterly disgusting, but about what we've all come to expect of the NHS staff. We'll all die, but id rather it not be under the 'care' of the NHS.

[Bruce Banner]

We have reached the ridiculous situation whereby the NHS will forcibly prolong life regardless of whether the quality of that life is acceptable to the individual.

As a result of which, some people with early signs of degenerative disease are ending their lives sooner rather than later before they are unable to do so without outside assistance.

[wherebee]

We have reached the ridiculous situation whereby the NHS will forcibly prolong life regardless of whether the quality of that life is acceptable to the individual.

As a result of which, some people with early signs of degenerative disease are ending their lives sooner rather than later before they are unable to do so without outside assistance.

If I start to get alzheimers (my gran did, and knew she had it for about 5 years), I'll head into tower hamlets with a bottle of whiskey, a t shirt saying Mo is a paedo, and a burning book. Should do the trick.

[rxe]

I watched my cousin's body die over a period of 7 years and it was horrific. He (as in the person I knew) died early on, but the doctors tortured what remained of him for a long time.

The most bizarre thing about this is that the medical profession seem to think that starving someone to death is a better option than a big lump of morphine. Having had a big shot of morphine (clearly not enough to finish me off....) I can confirm that it would be a pretty painless way to go.

As a result of which, some people with early signs of degenerative disease are ending their lives sooner rather than later before they are unable to do so without outside assistance.

Exactly. If I was unfortunate enough to be diagnosed with this, my only question would be "at what point will I be unable to load my shotgun and hold it between my knees".

[Mrs Bear]

The NHS is seeking to end the culture of prolonging elderly patients lives with statins etc and resuscitation interventions.

I guess this is one answer to the demographic time bomb which has increased the NHS budget by sevenfold in two generations in real terms.

I actually saw this in action earlier this year when my Great Aunt was let go at 97. she was suffering from dementia but wasn't eating so they stopped feeding her and she died five and a half days later....she was so strong that not many of us would last five and a half days without water and food.

I'm actually not that convinced that dementia patients have such a low quality of life......she was one of those that was actually enjoying life during her lucid moments and the screams etc. that younger people take as distress are probably no more than a two year old screaming. But I have noticed that the medical profession have pretty much lost patience with those that cling onto life and cost cataclysmic amounts of money running into the tens of thousands every year. So possibly a money call more than anything else.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/elderhealth/11003036/Elderly-and-frail-patients-should-be-allowed-to-die-says-cardiologist.html

If she wasn't eating , it was very likely a sign that her body was beginning to shut down and she no longer needed food. Indeed at this stage it can cause nausea.

I have seen someone with late stage dementia being pestered and badgered to eat when the poor lady clearly didn't want it - she was crying and whimpering and turning her head way. It was done I know with good intentions (in my mother's care home) but I have made it very clear to staff that if and when my mother begins to refuse food, she is NOT to be badgered to eat. TBH choosing to refuse food at the end is about the only choice people with advanced dementia have left to them.

[crashmonitor]

If she wasn't eating , it was very likely a sign that her body was beginning to shut down and she no longer needed food. Indeed at this stage it can cause nausea.

I have seen someone with late stage dementia being pestered and badgered to eat when the poor lady clearly didn't want it - she was crying and whimpering and turning her head way. It was done I know with good intentions (in my mother's care home) but I have made it very clear to staff that if and when my mother begins to refuse food, she is NOT to be badgered to eat. TBH choosing to refuse food at the end is about the only choice people with advanced dementia have left to them.

That sounds a good summary of how it was. It is indeed a very protracted death, by day four the voice becomes alien and throaty for want of water. It was mentioned that a dose of morphine would be a kinder option than starvation.

[JustYield]

If I make it to an age where dementia is evident, I've given instructions to force feed me speed-balls until I succumb. I have three strikes and I'm out!

[winkie]

This is worth a listen.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04brpdk

[Mrs Bear]

That sounds a good summary of how it was. It is indeed a very protracted death, by day four the voice becomes alien and throaty for want of water. It was mentioned that a dose of morphine would be a kinder option than starvation.

I am not sure. I had a 86 yr old aunt with late-ish dementia who had been ill after the umpteenth urinary tract infection, and had begun to refuse both food and drink. We were asked whether we wanted her sent to hospital for IV fluids or (basically) left where she was to die. Hospital would have been very distressing for her, as for so many with dementia, since they cannot understand what is going on or why they are there at all, and cannot remember any instructions, e.g. about call buttons, or that they must leave any IV tubes or catheters or dressings alone. (My poor old FIL had to have a catheter and was constantly pulling it out)

We could only ask the GP what he'd do of it were his much loved aunt. He said he'd leave her where she was, in familiar

care home surroundings, where they would keep her comfortable. Even if she were given IV fluids it was only going to happen again, and maybe very soon.

I sat with her a lot during her last days. Her mouth was kept moist with those little sponges, and staff (who were very kind) continued to offer drinks and foods like yoghurt, but she clearly did not want any of it - she would close her mouth and turn her head away. She was sleeping most of the time and honestly did not seem to be in any discomfort. It was a very difficult decision at the time, but we never once regretted it afterwards. She had not been happy or enjoying life for some years and we knew it was what she would have wished for herself.

[StainlessSteelCat]

I think it's quite possible that different people react differently to dementia. Some will want a quiet end of their choosing and as much dignity as possible, others might want to go out into the long night screaming and fighting all of the way.

I'm not sure what I'd choose myself yet.

[winkie]

I think it's quite possible that different people react differently to dementia. Some will want a quiet end of their choosing and as much dignity as possible, others might want to go out into the long night screaming and fighting all of the way.

I'm not sure what I'd choose myself yet.

They may not have the capacity to make an informed choice........also people who can still think straight are generally optimistic about the future, they may think things will get better, a cure will be found.

Generally people are in denial about the future prospect of poor health and end of life......not nearly enough people make a will or a living will......not making a will, will not prolong life, it makes it easier for all to know what you want from life and death....that is if you know what you want yourself.

[Frank Hovis]

Nasty, I thought this was a thread about Edward II.

[geezer466]

I watched my cousin's body die over a period of 7 years and it was horrific. He (as in the person I knew) died early on, but the doctors tortured what remained of him for a long time.

The most bizarre thing about this is that the medical profession seem to think that starving someone to death is a better option than a big lump of morphine. Having had a big shot of morphine (clearly not enough to finish me off....) I can confirm that it would be a pretty painless way to go.

Exactly. If I was unfortunate enough to be diagnosed with this, my only question would be "at what point will I be unable to load my shotgun and hold it between my knees".

And the quirk in the law. Administering the morphine with a view to ending life is manslaughter at best murder at worst. Even providing the drug and or otherwise assisting the person to end it themselves leaves them open to an assisting a suicide charge.

My father had about 7 days notice of terminal cancer. Last 24 hours he was in a lot of pain and to give the medical staff their due they administered as much morphine as they dare to keep his pain manageable. Towards the end it became a very fine line. After he moaned in pain about an hour before the end I called a nurse who gave him another shot. I don't hold it against anyone but I am sure it was the o/d of morphine which took him rather than the cancer. At least he was able to shuffle off without pain and in some dignity.

I am sure a hell of a lot more of that goes on than we realise.

[JustYield]

Nasty, I thought this was a thread about Edward II.

Having a senior moment, Frank?

[Frank Hovis]

Having a senior moment, Frank?

I just thought "Berkeley Castle" when I read the thread title.

[1929crash]

If I start to get alzheimers (my gran did, and knew she had it for about 5 years), I'll head into tower hamlets with a bottle of whiskey, a t shirt saying Mo is a paedo, and a burning book. Should do the trick.

The best post on a depressing thread.

[1929crash]

I just thought "Berkeley Castle" when I read the thread title.

Ian Mortimer has a book - "The Greatest traitor" - which suggests that the Berkeley Castle death story is a myth.

[ccc]

Exactly. If I was unfortunate enough to be diagnosed with this, my only question would be "at what point will I be unable to load my shotgun and hold it between my knees".

Jesus holy shit !!

If I was about to die I think I would prefer the Justyield plan of a massive drug overdose - than blowing my balls off with a shotgun !!

[Rare Bear]

I was brought up as a strict Catholic and went to a very serious Catholic boarding school. The view that seemed to be held by more intelligent priests was that, in the case of a terminal disease, it was permissible to always give enough morphine to kill the pain. If the patient died then so be it, provided that the prime reason for the administration of the morphine wa to give relief from pain.