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Washington Post Front Page - 2 Israeli Soldieers Killed In Gaza

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There's a recent film by an Israeli director called The Gatekeepers.

In it the six still living heads of the Shin Bet talk quite openly about some of the unpleasant stuff they've been responsible for.

What's interesting to me is that these are hard, hard men, committed to the continued existence of Israel and even they question some of the things that were done in the past and are pessimistic about where current Israel policy is headed. They're confident that their tactics are effective, not so sure about the strategy behind them.

My understanding was that a common concern they shared is that the number of hardcore settlers/ squatters in Palestinian territory is near to reaching a critical point past which no Israeli government will ever be able to turf them out.

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The documentary Defamation by Yoav Shamir examines how the holocaust is used by the Israeli schools to promulgate and reinforce the feeling of an almost universal anti semitism and hatred of Israel.

In my view it goes some way towards understanding some of the ass backwards stuff I am reading on Twitter.

Given what youngsters are being taught on both sides gives me little hope that nothing less than the removal of one of the parties will bring about peace.

The impression I get from that documentary I mentioned and some other stuff I've seen from Israeli military professionals is that there is a rift between the more rational elements in the military and the hardline/ settler influenced Netanyahu government.

All the current operation in Gaza is doing, to quote a term I heard used by a British officer in Afghanistan, is 'mowing the grass'. And the military knows it.

And judging by the commentage I'm seeing under YT and elsewhere Team Hasbara must be typing themselves ragged.

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The impression I get from that documentary I mentioned and some other stuff I've seen from Israeli military professionals is that there is a rift between the more rational elements in the military and the hardline/ settler influenced Netanyahu government.

All the current operation in Gaza is doing, to quote a term I heard used by a British officer in Afghanistan, is 'mowing the grass'. And the military knows it.

And judging by the commentage I'm seeing under YT and elsewhere Team Hasbara must be typing themselves ragged.

.

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well they are up against an element of islam(not all, but a sizeable chunk), which have openly stated, by way of arafat and gadaffi,that one of their gameplans is to breed like rabbits.(this also applies to the west)

there can be no kid-glove solution to this.

Hardline islam needs to realise it is being used as cannon-fodder by other parties.

(ie both rome and hardline marxists know this kind of pre-reformation convert-or-die zealot is going to be a threat to them..but they would both like to use radical islam to take out a common enemy-that being Isreal,Ourselves and the yanks in particular, So the political collaborators let them in to cause chaos here,but will dispose of them once the target has been dealt with)

I guess we just need to educate and inform these ISIS guys on just how badly they are being set-up,

they are expendable useful idiots, to coin a leninist term

whatever action gets taken will cause a diplomatic foul-up and look bad to the rest of the world, even though even under UN mandates the isrealis are justified in removing the threat.

the $64 million question is how to neutralize this faction of nut-jobs without antagonizing the rest of their neighbours,If they go full-on force there is no doubt the isrealis will win militarily,but they will piss off many of the moderate faction and face an even bigger and more determined threat maybe 30 years from now after they've licked their wounds and regrouped.

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well they are up against an element of islam(not all, but a sizeable chunk), which have openly stated, by way of arafat and gadaffi,that one of their gameplans is to breed like rabbits.(this also applies to the west)

there can be no kid-glove solution to this.

hardline islam needs to realise it is being used as cannon-fodder by other parties.

whatever action gets taken will cause a diplomatic foul-up and look bad to the rest of the world, even though even under UN mandates the isrealis are justified in removing the threat.

the $64 million question is how to neutralize this faction of nut-jobs without antagonizing the rest of their neighbours,If they go full-on force there is no doubt the isrealis will win militarily,but they will piss off many of the moderate faction and face an even bigger and more determined threat maybe 30 years from now after they've licked their wounds and regrouped.

What would Jesus do?

I doubt he'd shell kids on the beach or burn them alive with white phosphorus and other weapons dreamed up in Hell.

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<snip>

the $64 million question is how to neutralize this faction of nut-jobs without antagonizing the rest of their neighbours,If they go full-on force there is no doubt the isrealis will win militarily,but they will piss off many of the moderate faction and face an even bigger and more determined threat maybe 30 years from now after they've licked their wounds and regrouped.

WSJ (2009): How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas

Moshav Tekuma, Israel
Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor's bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile's trajectory back to an "enormous, stupid mistake" made 30 years ago.
"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.
Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas. Sheikh Yassin continues to inspire militants today; during the recent war in Gaza, Hamas fighters confronted Israeli troops with "Yassins," primitive rocket-propelled grenades named in honor of the cleric....

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It's the usual, innit?

British soldiers killed = news, while Afghan peasants killed rarely is, unless perhaps some pesky journo sees an air strike killing lots of small kiddies.

But this one was Israeli soldiers killed on Israeli soil. Arguably closer to the Lee Rigby story.

Or perhaps more so. Rigby signed up to be a state-sponsored terrorist; Israeli soldiers are conscripts.

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For those too young to remember 1993, they had a real peace agreement back then, and both sides had tremendous international goodwill.

Then in '95 they elected Netanyahu, who tore up the peace agreement, proceeded to expand Israel's Lebensraum, and made it clear that nothing short of a Final Solution would satisfy him.

That left the Palestinians two faint strands of hope. One, that the International Community would restrain Israel (it sat back and turned a blind eye), and the other that a future Israeli government would change course (the government elected in 2000 did no such thing). Only once both those hopes had turned to dust after 2000 did Palestinian elements return to armed struggle.

The world has sent a clear signal: peace does not pay.

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An excellent hour long presentation giving a background to the whole conflict by a son of an Israeli General who exposes the myths around the whole Zionist plan.

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I'm keeping a close eye on this, as a close contact at a client - just 22 years old - was summoned back to Israel to take part in the offensive.

For this reason I'm not going to elaborate on my views on the existence of Israel and the rights and wrongs of the situation, I mean, it's only been going on for what - 57 years now.

It does being a somewhat personalised note to this for me.

Though I haven't noted a particular bias in the reporting on the Telegraph site that I flip to now and again.

Note: if the above implies that I am pro-Israel and taking a particular side, do not infer that. It's just all a bit tragic.

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Anyone else find when they watch these people on the TV - when you take away clothes and facial hair style etc.. - they really do look very similar.

Almost as if they are cut from the same cloth.

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What would Jesus do?

I doubt he'd shell kids on the beach or burn them alive with white phosphorus and other weapons dreamed up in Hell.

these guys don't believe the new testament,

as such they will be sqabbling over the smallest detail of which day of the week to stop work(even though jesus said that's your own responsibility,but don't persecute those who do differently)

old testament interpretation is "do ALL 613 items this way,no deviation, or else", and punishment is collective rather than individual

it's all old testament fire and brimstone through and through.

This is the gameplan they are using.(hence why I call the likes of Hamas basically the same as pre-reformation christianity, and as such need to grow up, and realise their clerics are more interested in power than spiritual welfare of the people,(just like it was over here 600 years ago!)

so that in effect means destroy all who are of different belief in their entirity...and then the whole lot turns into "my god is bigger than your god"

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these guys don't believe the new testament,

as such they will be sqabbling over the smallest detail of which day of the week to stop work(even though jesus said that's your own responsibility,but don't persecute those who do differently)

old testament interpretation is "do ALL 613 items this way,no deviation, or else", and punishment is collective rather than individual

it's all old testament fire and brimstone through and through.

This is the gameplan they are using.(hence why I call the likes of Hamas basically the same as pre-reformation christianity, and as such need to grow up, and realise their clerics are more interested in power than spiritual welfare of the people,(just like it was over here 600 years ago!)

so that in effect means destroy all who are of different belief in their entirity...and then the whole lot turns into "my god is bigger than your god"

But - correct me if I am wrong - you were advocating collective punishment.

And is the God of the Old Testament the same as the God of the New Testament?

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This will go on until some nutjob liberates a nuke and takes out Tel Aviv.

On one side you have the Israelis who seem to see nothing wrong with occupying land and imposing (lethal) collective punishment on their enemies. Given their experience of collective punishment, you might think that they would be more considered in their response, but no, they are determined to raise the next generation of people that hate them.

Then you have the Palestinians, for whom life seems to be cheap, and they don't seem to realise (or care) that lobbing rockets into Israel (and killing students etc) will provoke a response. That said, they have nowhere else to go, and this is classic asymmetric warfare when faced with an army that is supplied with best the US has.

There is no end to this: Israel's current action is filling the ranks of Hamas fighters - if you've just had your house shelled and parents killed, then donning a suicide vest is not beyond the realms of sanity. If there is no peace, then there are two possible end points. Option 1 is for the Israelis to bulldoze the Palestinians into the sea and kill the lot of them. Option 2 is for Hamas to acquire the business ends of a couple of SS-18s (say from Ukraine, seems pretty uncontrolled over there) and turn the whole place into glass from the back of a truck. Not sure which is the most likely outcome.

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