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Middle-Classes 'forced Out Of Private Schools' As Fees Soar


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What about on the actual figure of £6k?What the figures seem to show is that state schools produce similar results on a half of the budget of private schools. And about a quarter of the budget of some of the elite schools.Indeed in areas like Tower Hamlets where the budgets are around the £9k mark the schools are regarded as excellent.Plus limited pastoral activities? The teachers I know seem to spend half their lives counselling pupils and taking them on activities.

I agree but a lot are not producing the results. It's not about results as I have said many times. At the elite schools you are buying a ticket to an exclusive club arguably the Academic performance is secondary.

A fairer comparison would be the newer or stripped down private schools in the £8 -£12k bracket I think as a group they compare vary well against state schools.

However one of the biggest factors is motivated parents, you don't get much 'let me go and sort that teacher out for daring to ask you to concentrate ' stuff in private schools.

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If title of thread is true this is not good news for the private/public school sector. Their reputation is based on results, that in large part is about attracting the brightest kids in numbers. If only the rich can afford it then the net result will be falling results or it becoming prohibitively expensive to try and maintain them. Could actually bring a big swing against any perceived merit in picking leavers from the sector.

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Bad value by what criteria? If you own a large arable farm and you want your son to play rugby before he takes over the reins are they bad value. If, like my partner, you come from a family of musicians and you want your child (who has talent on that area) to go to a specialist music school - why not pay?

Sorry debtless,I was referring to the cost of state schooling,which,when you consider the all in cost and the incredibly variable quality of the product,presents poor value at the minute to many taxpapyers.At least in the private sector,incompetent teachers get sacked.

Private schools work well for gifted kids,those who have a special interest and those that are a little slow academically-including yours truly.

They're essential for raising/maintaining the bar for the state sector,which,in my experience,needs something to compare itself too.

Everyone should try and do their best for their kids in their circumstances.

FWIW,I think the bullying situation is much better these days.I remember seeing some parents clearly struggle to keep their kids in school while I was there,little knowing that Jnr was getting his self esteem destroyed on a daily basis.

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FWIW,I think the bullying situation is much better these days.I remember seeing some parents clearly struggle to keep their kids in school while I was there,little knowing that Jnr was getting his self esteem destroyed on a daily basis.

There's no reason to think that state schools are/were any different in that respect. The one I went to was dreadful for bullying and the staff didn't give a sh1t about it either.

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What the figures seem to show is that state schools produce similar results on a half of the budget of private schools. And about a quarter of the budget of some of the elite schools.

The mistake is to compare the average private school with the best state schools. What going private buys you is a way out of the variability - there are some crap private schools for sure, but not very many compared to the number of crap state ones and they tend to shut pretty quickly.

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Breaks my heart to learn that you now have to pay through the nose to get your mediocre to average kid educated and crammed well enough to get into Oxbridge and then study something truly worthwhile like PPE.

For my money (so to speak), I'd insist that anyone who can afford private education can also afford the full cost (i.e. foreign student price) of their university education, without any low interest student loans to pay off at their leisure. That should change the dynamic a little and give the gifted rather than the wealthy more of the best chances.

.

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I'm seeing a lot of sheeple-ish comments, just replace "private school" with "over priced house" and "worth every penny" with "worth a 6x IO mortgage" plus "won't let my children miss out" with "don't miss the boat" :P;)

There was a documentary on Radio 4 about schooling a year or two ago and the expert said that probably the single biggest factor in how children performed educationally was the parents. If they took an active role in their children's education they'd perform to the best of their ability no matter what school they went to.

One thing that I've not really seen discussed here in added value, I was once given an example of a state school ranked by Ofsted as "good", results wise was average (but on the poor side) for the LA, but if you looked at their value add score they were clearly the best school in the LA. Reason being 2/3 of the pupils come from a council estate and they've been dragged up from the prospect of getting few, if any, GCSEs to getting some.

Here are the PISA results http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/PISA-2012-results-snapshot-Volume-I-ENG.pdf

How many of those countries that are ranked above us have an educational system based firmly around state/publicly funded educational systems? Perhaps the problem with education is really the mentality of the British public (just like it is with housing)?

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There's no reason to think that state schools are/were any different in that respect. The one I went to was dreadful for bullying and the staff didn't give a sh1t about it either.

They're different in that you get to home at night,unless you're unlucky and you're in care.

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I'm seeing a lot of sheeple-ish comments, just replace "private school" with "over priced house" and "worth every penny" with "worth a 6x IO mortgage" plus "won't let my children miss out" with "don't miss the boat" :P;)

There was a documentary on Radio 4 about schooling a year or two ago and the expert said that probably the single biggest factor in how children performed educationally was the parents. If they took an active role in their children's education they'd perform to the best of their ability no matter what school they went to.

One thing that I've not really seen discussed here in added value, I was once given an example of a state school ranked by Ofsted as "good", results wise was average (but on the poor side) for the LA, but if you looked at their value add score they were clearly the best school in the LA. Reason being 2/3 of the pupils come from a council estate and they've been dragged up from the prospect of getting few, if any, GCSEs to getting some.

Here are the PISA results http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/PISA-2012-results-snapshot-Volume-I-ENG.pdf

How many of those countries that are ranked above us have an educational system based firmly around state/publicly funded educational systems? Perhaps the problem with education is really the mentality of the British public (just like it is with housing)?

BUT, therein lies the problem, dragging up underperformers is not the same necessarily as getting the best out of non-underperformers. If you are in the catchment area for a sink estate in London where 20 / 30 native langiages are spoken your child is not going to come up with the best education as a native english speaker. Almost no country in the world for a start would allow non-native speaking enclaves to dominate entire towns/capitals.

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Breaks my heart to learn that you now have to pay through the nose to get your mediocre to average kid educated and crammed well enough to get into Oxbridge and then study something truly worthwhile like PPE.

For my money (so to speak), I'd insist that anyone who can afford private education can also afford the full cost (i.e. foreign student price) of their university education, without any low interest student loans to pay off at their leisure. That should change the dynamic a little and give the gifted rather than the wealthy more of the best chances.

.

In one sense I would agree, I am not sure about the current rules, but in the past Chinese/Russians etc would send their children to uk boarding school after they had been in the uk seven years their university fees were paid compensating for the outlay and getting them a uk passport. But what you suggest for uk residents is punishing the children (who may well end up borrowing the Money) for the decision of the parents. What bothers me about this debate is the constant assumption public schools are about snobbery (there is snobbery everywhere) and that the idea of paying more for a house in the catchment area of a good state school is any diffrrent! I know an Asian colleague who sold his house to move to a rented house in the catchment area of a good state school. His daughter will start there this year. He assures me he will buy a house in a less expensive area as soon as she starts!

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Good.

Any rationale to support that view?

I've given initial reasons to back up my opinions - so it's only fair to share!

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From Telegraph article, this comment chimed with me:



"The biggest advantage I can think of in what's generically called a 'private' education, is that it takes you away (for the most part) from all the wasters and disruptors that you will inevitably find in non-streamed and non-filtered schools.


Sad to say it, but it's true."



I went to state school where it only took a couple of d1ck-heads to completely disrupt the education of the other 30.



Daughter went to a well known boarding school, much better.


Edited by Bootsox
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Breaks my heart to learn that you now have to pay through the nose to get your mediocre to average kid educated and crammed well enough to get into Oxbridge and then study something truly worthwhile like PPE.

For my money (so to speak), I'd insist that anyone who can afford private education can also afford the full cost (i.e. foreign student price) of their university education, without any low interest student loans to pay off at their leisure. That should change the dynamic a little and give the gifted rather than the wealthy more of the best chances.

.

Yes because people who want the best for their kids are all loaded, you'd never get a parent sacrificing their existence and putting every penny they have into their kids upbringing.

You either have no kids or are a communist.

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If title of thread is true this is not good news for the private/public school sector. Their reputation is based on results, that in large part is about attracting the brightest kids in numbers. If only the rich can afford it then the net result will be falling results or it becoming prohibitively expensive to try and maintain them. Could actually bring a big swing against any perceived merit in picking leavers from the sector.

I can see a lot more private schools struggling for pupils and having to close. The best known boarding schools will be all right, ditto the very academic day schools in densely populated areas - there will IMO always be enough demand. But the more mediocre schools academically speaking, in more countrified areas, will have a hard time, as I believe many are already.

It can surely only be good for standards though, if more MC parents who will not put up with lack of discipline and low expectations, are putting pressure on the state system. How good a school is does depend so much on the parents and their expectations - and it is certainly NOT all about how much money they've got.

Edited by Mrs Bear
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They're different in that you get to home at night,unless you're unlucky and you're in care.

True enough for boarding, I was more thinking about day schools. I don't really get the whole boarding thing for most kids though, I mean what's the point in having them if you pack them off somewhere else for 2/3rds of their childhood?

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My school had a very small boarding house when I was there, but only 10-15 pupils at any one time AFAIK (out of about 650-700 pupils in total)- many of whom were literally fulfilling its founding principle as a school for the sons of missionaries. They've given up on that now- the boarding house went on for a few years after one of the boarding house masters was sent down for fiddling the boarders, I guess it just didn't make economic sense any more.

My mum retired from teaching there about three years ago, after more than 20 years of being a teacher- she still goes in every week to see her old colleagues, to sing in the choir, and to coach a Chinese pupil in English as she acquired a TEFL qualification prior to the two years she spent volunteering abroad after retiring. TBH I still have strong affection for the place; as I say I had a great education, only had a couple of poor/twatty teachers in my 7 years there, and was allowed to stop wasting Saturdays playing Rugby after the third year (a game I should have been great at but never was, due to my very strong self-preservation instinct- my slightly larger younger brother was captain of the First XV).

But I shy away from getting involved in old-boys days etc. because 1) it would be ridiculous for me as someone who can't afford to buy a house in London to contribute any money to a school that in the main educates the kids of people much richer than myself and 2) because even if I do have kids (which is now quite unlikely) I could never afford to send them there, unless they get a scholarship or an assisted place.

Incidentally I got a small music scholarship to the school off the back of my singing and my violin playing. Again I don't want to sound arrogant but I really did have an amazing treble as a kid, pitch perfect, high As without breaking a sweat etc. But my voice broke before my 13th birthday to be replaced by a quavering baritone, and I very quickly got demoted from the violin to the viola, which I played to about grade 6, spending a long and undistinguished career in the First String Orchestra because there was no competition at all to replace me! :D

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Breaks my heart to learn that you now have to pay through the nose to get your mediocre to average kid educated and crammed well enough to get into Oxbridge and then study something truly worthwhile like PPE.

For my money (so to speak), I'd insist that anyone who can afford private education can also afford the full cost (i.e. foreign student price) of their university education, without any low interest student loans to pay off at their leisure. That should change the dynamic a little and give the gifted rather than the wealthy more of the best chances.

.

Great fully agree - but I presumably get 7 x £9k back for not using the state education system per child. sort of evens out doesn't it?

Edited by Greg Bowman
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One thing that I've not really seen discussed here in added value, I was once given an example of a state school ranked by Ofsted as "good", results wise was average (but on the poor side) for the LA, but if you looked at their value add score they were clearly the best school in the LA. Reason being 2/3 of the pupils come from a council estate and they've been dragged up from the prospect of getting few, if any, GCSEs to getting some.

However, as a parent, the only thing I care about is the final outcome for my child. The fact that the school has managed to drag a whole horde of children out of the swamp is irrelevant if my child wasn't in the swamp in the first place....

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By 2027, researchers estimate that day fees will more than double again to £27,400, with a further £3,000-a-year needed for extras such as music lessons, uniforms and school trips.

It would result in a total price tag of £271,000, or £526,000 for two children.

Just like projections for HPI then. Just like golf-courses and stuff; The biggest frenzy was in the late 1990s, Affeldt said, after an “erroneous report” said that the supply of golf courses would not be sufficient to accommodate retiring baby boomers. Between 1994 and 1999, the market added on average a net 343 courses a year. What the projections did not account for, however, was changing behavior among retirees. “Prior to 2000, the assumption was that boomers would behave the same as retirees in the 1950s through 1990s — people would retire and get a membership at a golf club,” said Douglas Main, director of real estate consulting with Deloitte Transaction and Business Analytics. http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/07/07/investors-are-buying-troubled-golf-courses-and-giving-them-makeovers/

Just discovered my brother's old school is merging with another school 3 miles away. That school going to sell off their buildings and land.

May 27, 2014

An £8,000-a-year independent school in Stockport is to close - blaming the recession. ...A Hillcrest parent, who wished to remain anonymous, said: “I am very angry, there has been no consultation with parents, this has come out of the blue.”

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/stockport-independent-school-hillcrest-grammar-6885519

One of the latest blog entries.. no foreign ski-trip this year? 'The number of pupils who have confirmed their interest in the ski trip continue to be an issue and at present are insufficient for the trip to go ahead as planned.'

What are the advantages of merger and why have you merged?
Over the last few years, small independent schools have found economic conditions difficult and many have closed.
Small schools do not have the economy of scale like larger schools and often costs of buildings and overheads takes up substantial amounts of resources which could be better spent on learning and teaching.
Both Hillcrest and Hulme Hall are small schools catering for 185 and 300 respectively. Economically it would be more advantageous to join the two schools under one roof, increasing the capacity and resources at the one school and substantially reducing the costs of overheads.
In this case we have the advantage of the two school sharing a very similar ethos and character and with good local reputations we believe the schools would be better as one rather than competing as two. By pulling the schools together we believe we can:
Create a small but sustainable all through school
Maintain small class sizes
Keep fees competitive and as low as possible
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What's with this thread?

The (mumsnet) HPC-er archetype is that we all live alone in grubby bedsits only taking time from our NMW call centre jobs to spill bile and bitterness on the internet.

Yet it seems everyone sends their kids to Eton and/or are OEs themselves.

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What's with this thread?

The (mumsnet) HPC-er archetype is that we all live alone in grubby bedsits only taking time from our NMW call centre jobs to spill bile and bitterness on the internet.

Yet it seems everyone sends their kids to Eton and/or are OEs themselves.

Well, to restore your faith in the site I attended a school ranked outside the top 400 in Scotland, quite a feat in itself. It wasn't private :-)

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What's with this thread?

The (mumsnet) HPC-er archetype is that we all live alone in grubby bedsits only taking time from our NMW call centre jobs to spill bile and bitterness on the internet.

Yet it seems everyone sends their kids to Eton and/or are OEs themselves.

In general I get the opposite impression from people critical of 'HPC-ers'- that they think we're all too clever for our own good and sit about here crowing about our economic expertise while the real world sails on by, refusing to bend to our will?

I actually am an 'OE', but not an Old Etonian, my school was and is a fairly minor one though it was in the top 100 in the nationwide league tables for GCSE and A-Level when I was there, and still is, depending on what you're measuring, seems you get a different table every time you google! :rolleyes:

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Well, to restore your faith in the site I attended a school ranked outside the top 400 in Scotland, quite a feat in itself. It wasn't private :-)

My old school was supposedly that bad they knocked it down and sold the land and playing fields for housing....must have been worth more. ;)

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