Greg Bowman Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Ouch, £11000 a year is a very large amount of money. Don't forget that state schools are not "free" and cost the government (tax payers) between £4000 and £9000 per pupil per year (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12175480). So in terms on money spent on your kids' education, they are not far behind their private counterparts and a heck of a lot cheaper So on that basis at £9k most state schools are a complete rip off with their watered down curriculum, limited pastoral activities and short hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 After a certain age people now have access to many forms of education, in many cases for very little cost, the www has opened a whole new world....the early years are very important in how children learn in the future and what new information they can absorb or want to find out about....that has less to do with education, but a lot to do with security, love, attention, trust, safety, routine etc....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GloomMonger Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I was very happy at boarding school and would love to send my kids there, if I could afford it. I was never pushed academically but did excel on the sportsfield. Left with 3 average A levels, and graduated from Manchester Uni with a mickey mouse 2:2 degree. I'm still unsure of how to educate our children, but I do believe that the most important qualities to get on in life are confidence and taking pleasure from your chosen career. Whether it's state or private, I will be trying to encourage them both to find their niche and excel at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justthisbloke Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 So on that basis at £9k most state schools are a complete rip off with their watered down curriculum, limited pastoral activities and short hours. The shocking financial fact about education is not private school fees; rather, it is the state school fees. When I found out how little you got and how much it cost, I was astonished. And I'm pretty hardened to the wastefulness of bureaucrats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 The shocking financial fact about education is not private school fees; rather, it is the state school fees. When I found out how little you got and how much it cost, I was astonished. And I'm pretty hardened to the wastefulness of bureaucrats. Not all state schools are bad....but many could be much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justthisbloke Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Oh, I agree (I don't mean to "dis" all state schools or their alumni). I was thinking more of the simple quantity *hours* rather than quality of those hours[1]. My sprogs start at 0800 I think and usually have some form of activity until 2000 or 2100. Occasional lectures and events carry on past even that. My youngest often calls to say goodnight well after 2200 (unless she's stuck on kitchen duty). My observation of state senior schools is that they seem to kick out at around 1500 (if that - round here, I'm convinced it's earlier). [1] This is a very simplistic observation rather than analysis. State schools have very long terms so the actual hours of contact-time could well be identical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 A couple of years ago, private eye had great fun pointing out that, the editorial staff of the grauniad were nearly all from public schools. Despite their campaign against the injustice of it all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheBlueCat Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 A couple of years ago, private eye had great fun pointing out that, the editorial staff of the grauniad were nearly all from public schools. Despite their campaign against the injustice of it all! If there's one thing the left hates more than everything else (and that's quite an achievement) it's itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sancho Panza Posted July 7, 2014 Author Share Posted July 7, 2014 A couple of years ago, private eye had great fun pointing out that, the editorial staff of the grauniad were nearly all from public schools. Despite their campaign against the injustice of it all! It's also surprising how ethnically 'undiverse' some of these organisations are too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBrit Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Since you are part of most people I guess that is your view too. The debate about the house versus education was a fiercely debated when I was a fee paying parent. In truth so you get a house at 18 what next ? The ability to deploy re critical thinking, move within as everyone on here agrees a fairly select network is worth more than the amount you would spend on a house. In addition would you trust an 18 year old with a 300k unearned asset ? - seems bonkers to me. Whereas education or rather education in the look and aspiration of the most successful people is there forever. The look at me comment is unfounded in my experience. The school fees are currently £30k a year and believe me if I believed there was a better choice I would of taken it. My parents cohort many of who are still friends included many people running their own small businesses, a police officer and a single mum working three jobs. Private education is well within reach of many people (not enough granted) but the absolute disdain for academic achievement demonstrated by many families in this country is breath taking. Are you saying that you put your kids through private school? If yes, then you have just proven my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bambam Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 The educational outcome of children is almost entirely based around their parents level of education, parental income and parental attitude towards education. There is no evidence that private schools educate pupils better than their state counterparts when you adjust for the above factors. Indeed the PISA tests showed that state pupils did better than their private counterparts (when adjusted for parental income) and numerous studies have shown pupils with the same A-level results as private school pupils do significantly better at University. The PISA tests showed no such thing, since they didnt actually ask the parents income, instead the adjustment was based on things like whether the school was selective, which ALL private schools are in theory, but in reality the sector as a whole is non selective apart from the (admittedly considerable) effect of parental income. As for A Level results, the difference between state and private is about one grade, so an ABB at a state school is as good as AAB from private. Which isn't all that significant considering the average grade from state schools is more than three grades lower than private. And of course beyond that, career outcomes for privately educated children are far better, vastly disproportionate numbers in fields such as law are educated at private school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy budd Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 That was my experience of boarding school (left school early nineties). Had a perfectly acceptable time there and achieved decent A Levels, but didn't have quite the same sort of family background, lacking the networking contacts and probably a bit short on the social niceties that my contemporaries would have been brought up with. But the net result was that both myself and my sister ended up in more or less the same sort of work as we most likely would have if we had stayed at home without the expensive education, which was a shame because without having to graft like slaves to pay the fees, our folks would have undoubtedly enjoyed those years some more. This matches my own experience very closely; got into a very academic private school on a choral scholarship which paid half the fees (much lower back then of course) with my mum working nights to make up the difference. Got reasonable A Levels and went on to University, but without the background and social capital of my peers have probably ended up where I would have anyway. My daughter is doing much better than I ever did academically at the local "bog standard" comprehensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy budd Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 So on that basis at £9k most state schools are a complete rip off with their watered down curriculum, limited pastoral activities and short hours. Don't must private schools have terms that are 1-2 weeks shorter than state schools? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahBell Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Telegraph 6/7/14 'Private education is becoming “increasingly unaffordable” for the middle-classes following a four-fold rise in school fees in little over 20 years, according to a major study. Good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) Don't must private schools have terms that are 1-2 weeks shorter than state schools? I think a lot of private schools have lessons on Saturdays though (at least Saturday mornings). Possibly longer days the rest of the week too, not sure about that one. Edited July 8, 2014 by Riedquat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bowman Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Are you saying that you put your kids through private school? If yes, then you have just proven my point. Or it makes for some would say a balanced view if you have 1st person experience ( as a parent ) of both systems. Which is still way removed from some of our friends on here who have been students in both systems. But probably a little more balanced than someone who only has personal experience of one of the systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I went to a public school in Yorkshire, my brothers went to a quite well known boarding school in York, myself a former grammar school nearby (not boarding). Firstly my observation on the class issue. Some of my friends had parents who were petty beurgoise. Shopkeepers, vicars who did what they thought was best. The biggest identifiable group were farmers sons who went to the school as they played rugby (only reason) and there was never any doubt that they would end up running the (highly profitable) farm. Everyone had Yorkshire accents and it was impossible to tell if they were loaded or poorish by the way they spoke- but that's a northern thing. My brothers never got anywhere academically, but one got a job in a friend dads business, do that's a result I suppose. I ended up a an academic, I am still in Touch with one of my physics teachers who Views me as a success story. To be honest I have to say that certain teachers, science in particular, I had were outstanding and I don't believe that I would have had that in the state sector. That benefitted me but perhaps only a few students in that school. As to abolishing public schools - they would Just move abroad and contribute to our already disastrous balance of trade. Also closing, say, eton would be cultural vandalism on the level of Mao's cultural revolution... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) Triplicate Edited July 8, 2014 by debtlessmanc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) Duplicate Edited July 8, 2014 by debtlessmanc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wherebee Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I went to a public school in Yorkshire, my brothers went to a quite well known boarding school in York, myself a former grammar school nearby (not boarding). Firstly my observation on the class issue. Some of my friends had parents who were petty beurgoise. Shopkeepers, vicars who did what they thought was best. The biggest identifiable group were farmers sons who went to the school as they played rugby (only reason) and there was never any doubt that they would end up running the (highly profitable) farm. Everyone had Yorkshire accents and it was impossible to tell if they were loaded or poorish by the way they spoke- but that's a northern thing. My brothers never got anywhere academically, but one got a job in a friend dads business, do that's a result I suppose. I ended up a an academic, I am still in Touch with one of my physics teachers who Views me as a success story. To be honest I have to say that certain teachers, science in particular, I had were outstanding and I don't believe that I would have had that in the state sector. That benefitted me but perhaps only a few students in that school. As to abolishing public schools - they would Just move abroad and contribute to our already disastrous balance of trade. Also closing, say, eton would be cultural vandalism on the level of Mao's cultural revolution... Did you become a taxman and do everything in triplicate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Did you become a taxman and do everything in triplicate? No I suffered that moment of dread when you suspect your phone is about to lose everything you just typed in ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sancho Panza Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 I went to a public school in Yorkshire, my brothers went to a quite well known boarding school in York, myself a former grammar school nearby (not boarding). Firstly my observation on the class issue. Some of my friends had parents who were petty beurgoise. Shopkeepers, vicars who did what they thought was best. The biggest identifiable group were farmers sons who went to the school as they played rugby (only reason) and there was never any doubt that they would end up running the (highly profitable) farm. Everyone had Yorkshire accents and it was impossible to tell if they were loaded or poorish by the way they spoke- but that's a northern thing. My brothers never got anywhere academically, but one got a job in a friend dads business, do that's a result I went to a local comp until parents moved abroad and then I went to boarding school at 16 in the midlands.My experience was similar but even back then 80's,at the end of term,a train full of London based kids headed south,a coachload headed north,and the few from from the midlands and Scotland.Mine was one of the few regional accents in the school. I hated it.There was a lot of snobs there.It was bad times if you were 1) from India 2) from the far east 3) had a regional accent 4) were fat The teaching wasn't even that great to be honest but class sizes were small and they taught for longer which is probably where the small academic difference comes. What they did do though,was give already confident kids,a confidence boost.Which is why fields such as the Bar,Investment Banking/Stock Broking(both need a lot of bull to sustain turnover) and the military are full of public schoolies. The days of the old school tie are gone though.Noone gives a toss where you went to school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sancho Panza Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 The PISA tests showed no such thing, since they didnt actually ask the parents income, instead the adjustment was based on things like whether the school was selective, which ALL private schools are in theory, but in reality the sector as a whole is non selective apart from the (admittedly considerable) effect of parental income. As for A Level results, the difference between state and private is about one grade, so an ABB at a state school is as good as AAB from private. Which isn't all that significant considering the average grade from state schools is more than three grades lower than private. And of course beyond that, career outcomes for privately educated children are far better, vastly disproportionate numbers in fields such as law are educated at private school. Fascinating insight,thanks. Having a rich Mummy/Daddy is probably more of an influence on career success in some fields where start up capital is needed rahter than one's alma mater. So on that basis at £9k most state schools are a complete rip off with their watered down curriculum, limited pastoral activities and short hours. I think they're shockingly bad value for a variety of reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Fascinating insight,thanks. Having a rich Mummy/Daddy is probably more of an influence on career success in some fields where start up capital is needed rahter than one's alma mater. I think they're shockingly bad value for a variety of reasons. Bad value by what criteria? If you own a large arable farm and you want your son to play rugby before he takes over the reins are they bad value. If, like my partner, you come from a family of musicians and you want your child (who has talent on that area) to go to a specialist music school - why not pay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timak Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 So on that basis at £9k most state schools are a complete rip off with their watered down curriculum, limited pastoral activities and short hours. What about on the actual figure of £6k? What the figures seem to show is that state schools produce similar results on a half of the budget of private schools. And about a quarter of the budget of some of the elite schools. Indeed in areas like Tower Hamlets where the budgets are around the £9k mark the schools are regarded as excellent. Plus limited pastoral activities? The teachers I know seem to spend half their lives counselling pupils and taking them on activities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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