onlyme2 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Yep, expect to do 18k miles per annum. The fuel cost saving soon racks up. I pay a nominal £30 per annum to use the chargers at work. Also use the free rapid chargers on the motorway services provided by Ecotricity. (Expected full coverage at every motorway service station by end of this year). http://www.ecotricity.co.uk/for-the-road/our-electric-highway I've also restarted driving for fun over the weekend again as it costs nothing to get anywhere and use the savings to have a more expensive lunch / day out! Have bumped into a few airport taxi's using EVs around the free rapid chargers along the M4 as it maximises their profit line. General note on lithium battery life. Over-discharging and over-charging (and heat) seem to be key drivers in shortened battery life. There was a recent study into general characteristics and keeping the batteries between say 20 and 80 % charge at all times may result in useful battery life way beyond the manufacturer's estimates. Re. Nissan battery swap - loads of conditions on those, don't expect third party (cheaper) source, best to make optimum use of first purchased battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlylooking Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 General note on lithium battery life. Over-discharging and over-charging (and heat) seem to be key drivers in shortened battery life. There was a recent study into general characteristics and keeping the batteries between say 20 and 80 % charge at all times may result in useful battery life way beyond the manufacturer's estimates. Re. Nissan battery swap - loads of conditions on those, don't expect third party (cheaper) source, best to make optimum use of first purchased battery. The battery swap under the current 5 yr UK or 8 yr in US battery warranty for degradation to 70% or lower capacity does have loads of conditions. The new info announced this week by Nissan US is a complete new battery replacement pack for $5.5k regardless of warranty. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168#p374490 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme2 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 The battery swap under the current 5 yr UK or 8 yr in US battery warranty for degradation to 70% or lower capacity does have loads of conditions. The new info announced this week by Nissan US is a complete new battery replacement pack for $5.5k regardless of warranty. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168#p374490 Apparently there a lot ownership and entitlement checks - suspect these are being provided at almost no cost, hence saying that unlikely to appear cheaper from third party supplier. Nissan received a bit of bad PR early on in the states where a few of their battries failed early in life - think it was problems with heat in southern / desert states. Also some charging issues in very cold climate - need to heat the batteries up to a min temp before doing so. Luckily nowhere near the same issues in the UK. This is still a new tech for the mnanufacturers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knimbies who say No Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Looking promising on the battery front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy_renting Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I think you mean kWh, because I am a pedant! I've just been telling people the correct unit for reactive power is VAr. Both Mr Voltaire, and Mr Ampere deserve capital letters, but there was no "Mr Reactive"! It sounds like a lycra hero from a Manga book! You should be 'Mr Reactive' as your alter-ego. You would get to wear a cape, and your underpants outside your tights! People will know the gig is up when they see Sooty heading for a telephone kiosk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Bear Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Um. A watt is a joule per second...... I think you mean that a joule is a watt for a second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHERWICK Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Is a joule a watt for a second? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qetesuesi Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I think you mean kWh, because I am a pedant! I've just been telling people the correct unit for reactive power is VAr. Both Mr Voltaire, and Mr Ampere deserve capital letters, but there was no "Mr Reactive"! It sounds like a lycra hero from a Manga book! Mr Volta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justthisbloke Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 General note on lithium battery life. Over-discharging and over-charging (and heat) seem to be key drivers in shortened battery life. There was a recent study into general characteristics and keeping the batteries between say 20 and 80 % charge at all times may result in useful battery life way beyond the manufacturer's estimates. I think the i3 has hidden battery capacity that's left unused so that you never scrape the bottom or push the ceiling. Or, at least, that's what I read on the internet somewhere. There's certainly no evidence in the car of any secret capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justthisbloke Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Fine. I get 4.1 miles per kwh for the pedantic. That's pretty good - particularly if it's m-way work. I'm getting a life-time average of (IIRC) 4.6 miles/kwh but there's a lot of short, slow local road miles in that. It seems to have crept up a bit since the colder weather earlier in the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuG III Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I think you mean that a joule is a watt for a second. Watt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlylooking Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 That's pretty good - particularly if it's m-way work. I'm getting a life-time average of (IIRC) 4.6 miles/kwh but there's a lot of short, slow local road miles in that. It seems to have crept up a bit since the colder weather earlier in the year. I rarely go under 50 mph where I live and drive so I'm quite happy with keeping it over 4.0 miles/kWh. Yep, warmer temp has definitely increased range. I'm getting close to 100 miles on a full charge. Can now make it into central London on a whim for lunch and get back home again without topping up. The free electricity, free parking in London and nominal congestion charge allows for a more expensive lunch. Almost quite tempted to start working in London again as the commute cost would be pretty minimal. EVs really should appeal to the HPC frugalistas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Bear Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Watt? James? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rxe Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Almost quite tempted to start working in London again as the commute cost would be pretty minimal. problem with commuting into london is not the cost, it is the time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHERWICK Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 problem with commuting into london is not the cost, it is the time.... Surely the problem is London? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlylooking Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 problem with commuting into london is not the cost, it is the time.... Yep, left London to get decent work life balance when the kids turned up as a decent sized family home not in stabsville is ridiculously priced. Saying that, In all my job roles I normally start the day at 7:30 and leave the office before 4pm when possible to avoid traffic. Surely the problem is London? Unfortunately, it is also where lots of fun things to see and do are concentrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy_renting Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Watt? It's a unit of power. It was named after James Watt, and it's adoption thrust Desmond Horsepower into total obscurity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy_renting Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadget Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 A BMW i3 with the range extender engine would do you- I daresay the engine would come on for the last 20 miles of the journey home. Or as others have said, maybe you could charge it at work for the journey home? However, as RK points out, the money saving results pretty much entirely from tax advantages which may evaporate at some point in the future. Diesel is heavily taxed and electricity isn't. The amount of energy required to move you and the car 100 miles each day doesn't change; modern common rail diesel engines are relatively thermally efficient- some are over 40% I believe. That's not quite as good as a large combustion plant but it's not far off. Just to correct a point often made: the energy savings of electric transport ARE massive even taking into account the electricity generation and transmission loses. Diesel doesn't come out of the ground ready to use in your car, refining crude takes enormous amount of energy as any photo of an oil refinery implies. I read UK oil refineries use up 10% of the whole UK electricity output themselves, though that's likely out of date now quite a few have shutdown... Back on topic: buying a new car never makes economic sense, but thanks to early adopters there will be a fair few second hand electric cars available in a couple of years. I just overtook an i3 on the motorway... With a 100 mile two way commute I'd say the OP is perfect candidate for an electric car. You need to use them a lot for the fuel savings to overcome the extra expense. And 100 miles of range is plenty: you just need to be able to park at work near a plug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPin Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Just to correct a point often made: the energy savings of electric transport ARE massive even taking into account the electricity generation and transmission loses. Diesel doesn't come out of the ground ready to use in your car, refining crude takes enormous amount of energy as any photo of an oil refinery implies. I read UK oil refineries use up 10% of the whole UK electricity output themselves, though that's likely out of date now quite a few have shutdown... Back on topic: buying a new car never makes economic sense, but thanks to early adopters there will be a fair few second hand electric cars available in a couple of years. I just overtook an i3 on the motorway... With a 100 mile two way commute I'd say the OP is perfect candidate for an electric car. You need to use them a lot for the fuel savings to overcome the extra expense. And 100 miles of range is plenty: you just need to be able to park at work near a plug. I hope you covered it in soot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Unless I have missed it somewhere here in the already several pages of this thread........I am surprised no one even raises the whole issue of the viability of 'universal' adoption of electric cars, as a replacement for the existing fleet of millions of internal combustion engine driven private/domestic cars - specifically in respect of how on Earth all that electricity is going to be 'delivered'!? I have been led to understand that the National Grid has relatively little spare capacity - and any masss adoption of electric vehicles (i.e cars being charged regularly everyday in homes up and down the country, etc) would require a gargantuan expansion of the grid and electricity generating capacity??!! No? The other impracticality, only barely lightly touched on in some replies I have seen, relates to the issue of inevitable incidents of drivers 'running out of juice' at the most inopportune/inconvenient moment or location. It happens every single day of the week up and down the country to countless drivers of petrol/diesel cars. But, in those situations, the worst that can likely happen is the hapless driver having to walk to the nearest petrol station and pay for a plastic 'gerry can' and a gallon of fuel. Just how exactly will a driver of an EV get their car charged, albeit with token few miles charge, in such a similar situation. Happening in an urban location will be bad enough. Imagine it happening in an even vaguely rural location! Whatever happened to fuel cell based cars? Seemed to hear so much about them, it seems, just a few distant years ago. Never hear them mentioned anymore - instead its all pure EVs a la the Tesla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy_renting Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Unless I have missed it somewhere here in the already several pages of this thread........I am surprised no one even raises the whole issue of the viability of 'universal' adoption of electric cars, as a replacement for the existing fleet of millions of internal combustion engine driven private/domestic cars - specifically in respect of how on Earth all that electricity is going to be 'delivered'!? I have been led to understand that the National Grid has relatively little spare capacity - and any masss adoption of electric vehicles (i.e cars being charged regularly everyday in homes up and down the country, etc) would require a gargantuan expansion of the grid and electricity generating capacity??!! No? The other impracticality, lightly touched on in some replies I have seen, relates to the issue of inevitable incidents of drivers 'running out of juice' at the most inopportune/inconvenient moment or location. It happens every single day of the week up and down the country to countless drivers of petrol/diesel cars. But, in those situations, the worst that can likely happen is the hapless driver having to walk to the nearest petrol station and pay for a plastic 'gerry can' and a gallon of fuel. Just how exactly will a driver of an EV get their car charged, albeit with token few miles charge, in such a similar situation. Happening in an urban location will be bad enough. Imagine it happening in an even vaguely rural location! Whaver happened to fuel cell based cars? Seemed to hear so much about them, it seems, just a few distant years ago. Nevr hear them mentioned anymore - instead its EVs a la the Tesla. I too am sceptical about the capability or capacity of the national grid - hence my earlier questions about charging time and power and energy. However, the grid itself has spare capacity at night, when it is presumed most cars will be charged. I agree fuel cells are a more promising technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I too am sceptical about the capability or capacity of the national grid - hence my earlier questions about charging time and power and energy. However, the grid itself has spare capacity at night, when it is presumed most cars will be charged. I agree fuel cells are a more promising technology. Even IF most cars are charged at night, when leccy demand for other uses (e.g toasters, washing machines, office lighting, etc) is at its lowest, surely the total demand for 'juice' from all these cars will still vastly exceed the Grids capability of supplying it - even iF that supply (from powerstations) is actually available??!! There are at present a few thousand pure EVs on the roads?? What will be the impact if there are 20 million! http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/08/energy_shortages/ Something tells me that pure EVs, as a replacement for petrol/diesel, will only ever be 'novelties' for the more afluent motorists? and so never amount to serious numbers. The Polaroid camera of the car world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Hovis Posted July 6, 2014 Author Share Posted July 6, 2014 With a 100 mile two way commute I'd say the OP is perfect candidate for an electric car. You need to use them a lot for the fuel savings to overcome the extra expense. And 100 miles of range is plenty: you just need to be able to park at work near a plug. That's what I thought, I have a totally predictable driving pattern and would buy a second older car for occasional longer trips. But it's not quite there yet for my 100 mile commute. Nearly and then two to three years after that to buy it second hand. So I'll try to keep my current car running til then, with a cheap stopgap if it goes bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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