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Can You Resign And Then Be Sacked In The Same Letter

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Was asked to look at a letter last night from someone who's resigned their job as they have a new one, there's been a bit of tension this new manager took over and they decided the best option was to get a new job and get out.

The letter starts by the manager accepting the individuals resignation, waffles on a bit, then starts making allegations that company information has been taken without permission which was asked to be returned which it was and then it finished with as a result of you taking this information I'm dismissing you with immediate effect!

I'm struggling to work out what the legal position is here, how can you accept the resignation and then sack the individual at the of the letter as surely by accepting the resignation they are no longer an employee?

As for the information "taken" this individual worked out of the office so for the job needed it away from the "office", the letter reads as a rather weak attempt at the manager covering their back.

So can you resign and then be sacked in the same letter?

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That's an interesting one...

The way I see it, the resignation came first.

There seems to be a concept of "accepting a resignation" as though it requires the employer to "agree" but that isn't really true, is it. Normally the employee says that as at m/d/y date I will no longer work for you and that's it - the notice period. As per the contract. 30 days, or whatever.

However having given notice I would suppose it is still possible for the employer to discover some malpractice around that time or after and formally dismiss the employee immediately.

In which case, what began as a resignation would appear to be able to become a sacking during the notice period.

The most obvious aspect is - unless the employer only found out about the "misconduct" that day, is the employer trying to shaft the employee to avoid paying certain benefits because sacking is cheaper and so this has a malicious element to it?

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However having given notice I would suppose it is still possible for the employer to discover some malpractice around that time or after and formally dismiss the employee immediately.

In which case, what began as a resignation would appear to be able to become a sacking during the notice period.

The most obvious aspect is - unless the employer only found out about the "misconduct" that day, is the employer trying to shaft the employee to avoid paying certain benefits because sacking is cheaper and so this has a malicious element to it?

At worst they've been done out of the wages for a week, however what has got them worried is the letter threatens them with legal action over the information that they believe they still hold. Unfortunately the letter doesn't clarify what information they think has been taken and should be returned.

The manager in question appears to be a "d1ck" and the letter does come across as someone being malicious.

Ultimately it really makes no difference to the individual in question as they start the new job next week, but the letter interests me with the content which I find bizarre.

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It might make some difference if he/she is waiting on a reference.

I think a written audit trail would be handy here in case it becomes relevant later on.

Being proactive - writing and asking precisely what the information was/is and what the allegations are might be prudent.

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what legal action could be taken over information they beleive to be held?

a dawn raid? A SWAT?

Its BS...all they can ask for is disclosure providing there is some case they are persuing..If they have no proof then they have no case if the target says no, he hasnt got it.

I think you can be sacked immediately for gross misconduct, and theft would be included I expect, otherwise, making allegations with no evidence and then acting on it with a sacking is a great case for compo..

IANAL

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At worst they've been done out of the wages for a week, however what has got them worried is the letter threatens them with legal action over the information that they believe they still hold. Unfortunately the letter doesn't clarify what information they think has been taken and should be returned.

The manager in question appears to be a "d1ck" and the letter does come across as someone being malicious.

Ultimately it really makes no difference to the individual in question as they start the new job next week, but the letter interests me with the content which I find bizarre.

If you want to make his **** squeaky send it to the company's legal department and ask their opinion.

At the very least he's overstepped his authority by a considerable margin. Last time we wanted to sack someone we had a lengthy consultation with HR and legal to make sure that it was entirely above board and worded correctly.

In fact thinking about it this could cause him a serious issue and he needs to act quickly to clarify. If he has indeed been fired officialy it may affect his references with his new employer. he also may be able to appeal for unfair dismissal. if I was the manager who had sent that letter I'd be losing sleep over it right now. Unless he has already run it past the HR/legal team then he's made a serious mistake.

Quick edit: I would advise to deal with HR rather than the manager to first clarify if he has resigned or been dismissed. No need to get into the legal gubbins that goes along with being fired and accused of theft unless it's absolutely neccessary. If he has been fired his next step should be a solicitor.

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At face value it sounds like your mate has given notice of his resignation.

It sounds like the company is basically saying we don't want you to work your notice period and we're not paying you either. Leave and don't ever darken our door.

In order to do that they have to fire him. To fire him they need grounds so it looks like they have probably just made up a plausible justification.

I think the only way he'd have any reason to be concerned is if he was deliberately doing something very dodgy with the companies information and they knew about it and could prove it. By very dodgy I mean selling personal customer information or selling company data to a competitor or something similar.

Presuming that is not the case he can either:

a) ignore it and just accept he will miss a few weeks pay while he's between jobs.

B) Speak to a solicitor or CAB about clawing back the difference.

Personally I think I'd just consider it an unpaid holiday and go with a).

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If you want to make his **** squeaky send it to the company's legal department and ask their opinion.

At the very least he's overstepped his authority by a considerable margin. Last time we wanted to sack someone we had a lengthy consultation with HR and legal to make sure that it was entirely above board and worded correctly.

Precisely. If this is a serious organisation then the manager might find his position in doubt after behaving like that.

If the manager has done this off his own bat then as far as HR/legal are concerned this would be a complaint from a current employee.

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The sacking (as opposed to the resignation) is important. Also many forward potential employers will ask why you left a previous employer. Better to be able to declare for career/money reasons than 'was sacked'.

It could impact on notice period pay and possibly references going forward

Sounds like this manager is talking out of his/her ar$e. For a workplace disciplinary event such as dismissal to occur (and be considered safe) there has to be both an investigation and a hearing where 'the accused' is allowed to explain their case. Even in the case of gross misconduct theft or whatever the person should be suspended on full pay whilst there is an investigation and a hearing. Although conceivably this could all be completed on the same day 'the accused' is entitled to support (trade union official, colleague or friend) at the subsequent disciplinary hearing. This usually could not be arranged on the same day.

Seems like there wasn't either.

The person can have a little sport in taking them to employment tribunal if he so wishes. The dismissal is automatically unfair they will win.

Only qualifying factors are a minimum 2 years service and a proper worker/employer contract being in place. (Worker needs to be a perm employee not agency or temp).

If it was me I would pursue it. This could back at some point in the future and bite the person in the ar$e.

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Only qualifying factors are a minimum 2 years service and a proper worker/employer contract being in place. (Worker needs to be a perm employee not agency or temp)

They have under 2 years service so they aren't going to qualify for unfair dismissal.

However if this is on their record it could lead to problems, especially with their new employer as they could lose there job as don't they have to disclose that they where now sacked from their last employer?

Even if you have under 2 years service you would still have the right to appear don't you?

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At face value it sounds like your mate has given notice of his resignation.

It sounds like the company is basically saying we don't want you to work your notice period and we're not paying you either. Leave and don't ever darken our door.

In order to do that they have to fire him. To fire him they need grounds so it looks like they have probably just made up a plausible justification.

Nonsense. They can simply tell him he's not required to work his notice. If they've fired him to avoid paying a week's wages then they're insane.

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Nonsense. They can simply tell him he's not required to work his notice. If they've fired him to avoid paying a week's wages then they're insane.

I think you are entitled to pay for notice youve given, but if they decide you dont work the period you are entitled to pay as per the notice they need to give you.

This often happens to sales people on Salary...they dont want you on the Road, so pay you the notice period and wave goodbye and have a nice break.

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Nonsense. They can simply tell him he's not required to work his notice. If they've fired him to avoid paying a week's wages then they're insane.

Sure, they could send him on garden leave.. but that's not the same thing as kicking him out and not paying him. If I misread the OP and they ARE paying him for the remainder of his notice period then I apologise.

Sacking someone who has handed in their notice is pretty insane. I think you are presuming this isn't acrimonious and that the manager is professional/level-headed.

Clearly different people have different views on whether to follow this up or not. If he already has another job to walk into then it seems to become more a matter of principle and one-upmanship rather than money. On the face of it he certainly appears to have a very strong case.. I'm sure a hearing would go in his favour. I'm not sure he'd get much compensation though as he's only lost a few weeks salary and already has another job to go to. There's not a lot of "damage" as far as I can tell. If he'd get a huge amount of satisfaction from getting his old boss into trouble then I'm sure he could do it and win no problem.

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If he'd get a huge amount of satisfaction from getting his old boss into trouble then I'm sure he could do it and win no problem.

If it's a serious company then all he has to do is forward the letter to the appropriate audience inside the company and expose him.

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If it's a serious company then all he has to do is forward the letter to the appropriate audience inside the company and expose him.

97% of people dont work in a "serious" company in the Private Sector.

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If it's a serious company then all he has to do is forward the letter to the appropriate audience inside the company and expose him.

Agree. Sensible advice.

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Sure, they could send him on garden leave.. but that's not the same thing as kicking him out and not paying him. If I misread the OP and they ARE paying him for the remainder of his notice period then I apologise.

Sacking someone who has handed in their notice is pretty insane. I think you are presuming this isn't acrimonious and that the manager is professional/level-headed.

Last day of pay stated in the letter was Mon, so they aren't paying for Tues-Fri, so it's 4 days pay they are avoiding.

I just think it's completely nuts.

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Last day of pay stated in the letter was Mon, so they aren't paying for Tues-Fri, so it's 4 days pay they are avoiding.

I just think it's completely nuts.

In light of the <2 years service, He should write to the HR department of the firm.

Explain the situation and ask if he is going to be offered an appeal to this so 'perceived sacking'. Explain it may impact on the new position he is moving to.

Hopefully when a person who understands employment law (usually bot not always HR people) they can reign this manager back in. Or indeed offer the appeal which gets him/her back in the door to explain the situation, get his/her point across.

Not offering an appeal against dismissal is also against the ACAS code of conduct and would also be an 'automatic win' if it was possible to bring the case to tribunal

It would not be in the interests of the firm to allow the situation to stay 'as is'. If for some reason it did affect employment going forward then there may well be a real loss. If that loss can be pinned onto the malicious actions of the previous firm or an employee working for them there would be grounds for action.

Just because the rules prevent a case being taken to employment tribunal a judge going forward would be bound to take a dim view of the 'out of procedure' action of the firm. Any HR person worth their salary will recognise and will right this wrong for the benefit of all parties.

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My mates ex-manager is a dick

Sounds like the manager went Full Retard. Deffo worth a 15 minute consultation with a lawyer, don't want this buggering up references.

Your mate clearly made the right decision, manager is clearly a fool of the highest order.

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Sounds like the manager went Full Retard. Deffo worth a 15 minute consultation with a lawyer, don't want this buggering up references.

Your mate clearly made the right decision, manager is clearly a fool of the highest order.

You cant give bad references...You can however, not give them at all.

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You cant give bad references...You can however, not give them at all.

You can, as long as they are based on fact. So if a new employer phones/asks for a reference IRRO's mate old employer and says how did he leave - the response he was sacked is perfectly valid, based as it is on fact.

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.. which is why it might be a good idea to address this promptly.

As it is, HR could potentially take action against that manager and have all record of that letter removed along with any status of 'dismissed'.

Later on, if said manager leaves and time elapses, you then simply have a company looking at its records and stating that someone was sacked which would be correct, you writing to them to tell them that you were not, and, possibly, them deciding to do absolutely nothing about it unless or until pushed since so far as they know, the records are right.

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what legal action could be taken over information they beleive to be held?

a dawn raid? A SWAT?

Its BS...all they can ask for is disclosure providing there is some case they are persuing..If they have no proof then they have no case if the target says no, he hasnt got it.

I think you can be sacked immediately for gross misconduct, and theft would be included I expect, otherwise, making allegations with no evidence and then acting on it with a sacking is a great case for compo..

IANAL

Even instant dismissal for gross misconduct has to come after a disciplinary process with an appeal possible by the employee.

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