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the_dork

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What is going to happen to them? Seen stats on grads moving to London, basically it’s where the jobs are for anyone semi-ambitious and I suppose over time people move up so that they could potentially get jobs in the professional fields (law, accounting, IT, marketing) further out when their salary goes up. But the point of the jobs ladder, as with housing, is that not everyone can 'move up'

Just anecdotally, I know maybe a dozen people living here, half on the proverbial 22 grand job in the city…sharing pretty crumby flats or houses that they try to be in as little as possible.

It’s fun living in London but if you’re remotely interested in the middle class 2.4 children lifestyle, it’s pretty impossible other than for the top tier. Obviously some of these people will inherit at some point but many won’t.. A reasonable deposit to buy in London must be 6 figures now anyway so again you have to be from a pretty untypical family to get that load of support

Are there just going to be loads of couples/singletons sharing the big London houses in their 40’s and 50’s? Or will some political movement have put pressure on government by then to reform the housing market?

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They'll do many of the rest of us did; get established in their career and then move out - either to the 'burbs or away completely. IT makes it completely realistic - it's just our bosses which need to catch up.

I work for the same company I worked at when I lived in London, I just don't live or work in London anymore.

I guess history repeats, only the difference between incomes and house prices is even greater now.

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They'll do many of the rest of us did; get established in their career and then move out - either to the 'burbs or away completely. IT makes it completely realistic - it's just our bosses which need to catch up.

I work for the same company I worked at when I lived in London, I just don't live or work in London anymore.

I guess history repeats, only the difference between incomes and house prices is even greater now.

Makes sense but it depends on your industry. I know alot of people in media and film journalism, writers etc and these jobs are not well paid, but entirely London centric. My BF has to be an affordable distance from central London, his career doesn't exisit in Yorkshire, I'd move tomorrow, but we can't. One of the Editors from his magazine, who is in his 40's, has had to jack in London house sharing and move back in with his parents as it's the only way to save any money. I think it's a tradgedy that many of the more creative career choices simply won't be worth pursuing unless you have some BOMAD backing.

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Makes sense but it depends on your industry. I know alot of people in media and film journalism, writers etc and these jobs are not well paid, but entirely London centric. My BF has to be an affordable distance from central London, his career doesn't exisit in Yorkshire, I'd move tomorrow, but we can't. One of the Editors from his magazine, who is in his 40's, has had to jack in London house sharing and move back in with his parents as it's the only way to save any money. I think it's a tradgedy that many of the more creative career choices simply won't be worth pursuing unless you have some BOMAD backing.

Family and family contacts have always played a big part in even getting into media. Now it seems it's family bankrolling as well.

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half on the proverbial 22 grand job in the city…

I doubt everyone got The Rakes reference, but I enjoyed it. Also noticeable that pitiful wage growth means that it's still 22 grand after more than 7 years since the song came out in 2005.

They'll do many of the rest of us did; get established in their career and then move out - either to the 'burbs or away completely. IT makes it completely realistic - it's just our bosses which need to catch up.

True that many always did that, but now far more have to do that. Let's look at family finances in 1992, where the cost of a London semi-detached house averaged £85k across the year (I did a double-take when I saw that) and the average UK salary was £20k. Let's say London salaries are at least 25% above average, so our man or woman is on £25k: mortgage of 3x plus 10k deposit and there you have a family-sized home on a single income at a reasonable multiple.

On the latest 2014 figures, the house is £395k and the salary is £32k-ish. So there is no realistic option of a family house in the capital any more for Mr/Mrs Average.

So, to flip the OP's question around, who is going to live in the houses once the parents who bought them at "affordable" prices downsize or die, assuming no crash? Granted some will be passed on as inheritance, but otherwise it could be:

  • Houses are split into flats and OP's sharers accept bringing up a family in a flat despite having 'good' jobs (e.g. Hong Kong style)
  • Houses are split into flats but are so expensive that OP's sharers can, as couples, only afford to buy a one-bed, so they just don't have kids
  • Houses remain as long-term BTLs, with landlords happy to accept tiny yields even when there are higher, risk-free returns to be had when IRs go up

So the alternatives seem to be either crash or social upheaval on an unprecedented scale. We will see.

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Even the meanest flat is out of reach for someone on 32k. Try 80k, or 100k, to make the more than a quarter of a million it'll cost you look manageable.

The average house in London rose 62k last year. Only 2% or so of earners even saw that amount after tax. No-one can afford these bubble prices any more - not even the rich kids working in the City.

London property is either bought by investors and left empty, or by landlords who promptly turn the living room, the utility room, and any spare crawlspace into extra 'bedrooms' and charge these sharers half their take-home to live with strangers. There won't be any families raising kids in flats, because any split flats will quickly be let out as houses of multiple occupancy.

The only other option for locals is the government buy-a-tenancy con called Shared Ownership, and even if you're fool enough to sign up there's only the minimum the builders can get away with available.

Either it will crash or there will be a lot of people giving up and moving out of London. Life on minimum wage in some deindustrialised Northern town looks to give you a much better quality of life than a highly successful professional job inside the M25.

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Makes sense but it depends on your industry. I know alot of people in media and film journalism, writers etc and these jobs are not well paid, but entirely London centric. My BF has to be an affordable distance from central London, his career doesn't exisit in Yorkshire, I'd move tomorrow, but we can't. One of the Editors from his magazine, who is in his 40's, has had to jack in London house sharing and move back in with his parents as it's the only way to save any money. I think it's a tradgedy that many of the more creative career choices simply won't be worth pursuing unless you have some BOMAD backing.

I work in an area related to publishing so I have some sympathy. I lived in shared houses until my mid 30s - even after getting married. Our first non-shared place that we rented was a tiny 1BR flat in a fairly horrible part of Newham. After six months of that, we realised that was the best we'd manage in London so we got out and went to Yorkshire.

While the traditional London centric routes for creative careers might be reducing, opportunities abound for the self starter on the Internet. You do not need to be London based to have such a career nowadays. I know freelancers who live on the south coast or Dorset and everything they need to review/write about comes via the post or email. They usually did have spells in London though I'm not sure it's necessary nowadays.

Equally, I know of one fairly high up journalist for who works for a national rag who now lives in Edinburgh. He does go to London once a fortnight or so though. I know of another in a related area planning to do the same in the next few months. Her OH's job is so specialised - there's basically one of him even in London. He's bringing it with him.

Our London office is slowly shrinking as more of us choose, and are able to work from home. All it takes is for everyone to take a breath and think there must be a better way than packing people into expensive office space, tiny rabbit hutch homes and the sardine tin Tube for sometimes limited extra benefit and perhaps none given the extra cash, wasted time and stress involved.

London will crash, or people will have to move out - and employers will have to let them. London is special and has critical mass for certain industries - but things can change.

Edited by StainlessSteelCat

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I work in an area related to publishing so I have some sympathy. I lived in shared houses until my mid 30s - even after getting married. Our first non-shared place that we rented was a tiny 1BR flat in a fairly horrible part of Newham. After six months of that, we realised that was the best we'd manage in London so we got out and went to Yorkshire.

While the traditional London centric routes for creative careers might be reducing, opportunities abound for the self starter on the Internet. You do not need to be London based to have such a career nowadays. I know freelancers who live on the south coast or Dorset and everything they need to review/write about comes via the post or email. They usually did have spells in London though I'm not sure it's necessary nowadays.

Equally, I know of one fairly high up journalist for who works for a national rag who now lives in Edinburgh. He does go to London once a fortnight or so though. I know of another in a related area planning to do the same in the next few months. Her OH's job is so specialised - there's basically one of him even in London. He's bringing it with him.

Our London office is slowly shrinking as more of us choose, and are able to work from home. All it takes is for everyone to take a breath and think there must be a better way than packing people into expensive office space, tiny rabbit hutch homes and the sardine tin Tube for sometimes limited extra benefit and perhaps none given the extra cash, wasted time and stress involved.

London will crash, or people will have to move out - and employers will have to let them. London is special and has critical mass for certain industries - but things can change.

Graphic designer l knew client moved out of London so had to travel to meet up with them a few times....liked where they moved to so much they ended up moving their family there....never looked back.

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Are there just going to be loads of couples/singletons sharing the big London houses in their 40’s and 50’s? Or will some political movement have put pressure on government by then to reform the housing market?

If prices keep going up this will be the new "family" unit. However I'd suggest they won't be big houses.

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If prices keep going up this will be the new "family" unit. However I'd suggest they won't be big houses.

Correct.....you can easily tell because of the number of motors parked in the front of the house, what used to be the front garden....counted as many as five, plus a possible one parked on the road in front of the drop kerb by family arrangement..... ;)

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Really not sure about that. I shared in houses of various sizes and quality for 4 years, was great fun and sociable though of course always the risk of personality clashes.

However, couldn't bear to do it now. I think non top earners will move further out unless they inherit a deposit, just not a feasible way for adults to live long term.

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Equally, I know of one fairly high up journalist for who works for a national rag who now lives in Edinburgh. He does go to London once a fortnight or so though. I know of another in a related area planning to do the same in the next few months. Her OH's job is so specialised - there's basically one of him even in London. He's bringing it with him.

Once you remove yourself from the office, the risk is that an accountant decides someone in India/China/Phillipines can do the job for $1/day. Whether they can or not, and whether the quality you deliver to customers will or will not suffer seems to make little difference, as the manager who saved so much money will have moved on by the time catastrophe strikes. Seen this a few times.

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Once you remove yourself from the office, the risk is that an accountant decides someone in India/China/Phillipines can do the job for $1/day. Whether they can or not, and whether the quality you deliver to customers will or will not suffer seems to make little difference, as the manager who saved so much money will have moved on by the time catastrophe strikes. Seen this a few times.

Now that is taking it too far. ;)

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I work in an area related to publishing so I have some sympathy. I lived in shared houses until my mid 30s - even after getting married. Our first non-shared place that we rented was a tiny 1BR flat in a fairly horrible part of Newham. After six months of that, we realised that was the best we'd manage in London so we got out and went to Yorkshire.

While the traditional London centric routes for creative careers might be reducing, opportunities abound for the self starter on the Internet. You do not need to be London based to have such a career nowadays. I know freelancers who live on the south coast or Dorset and everything they need to review/write about comes via the post or email. They usually did have spells in London though I'm not sure it's necessary nowadays.

Equally, I know of one fairly high up journalist for who works for a national rag who now lives in Edinburgh. He does go to London once a fortnight or so though. I know of another in a related area planning to do the same in the next few months. Her OH's job is so specialised - there's basically one of him even in London. He's bringing it with him.

Our London office is slowly shrinking as more of us choose, and are able to work from home. All it takes is for everyone to take a breath and think there must be a better way than packing people into expensive office space, tiny rabbit hutch homes and the sardine tin Tube for sometimes limited extra benefit and perhaps none given the extra cash, wasted time and stress involved.

London will crash, or people will have to move out - and employers will have to let them. London is special and has critical mass for certain industries - but things can change.

Interesting. My ex wife and I both spent most of our working lives in London media. Both of us came from working class backgrounds, my ex wife from an Essex council estate and I was brought up in Moss Side, Hulme, and Salford.

It's looking likely our children will have London media careers too.

But we were talking recently and agreed that it would be almost impossible for our children to have our careers if they'd started where we did. Not because they don't have the abilities, but because that ladder has been well and truly pulled up.

My ex wife and I both had free university educations, we both sailed into marketing careers with blue chip companies, both bought property in the provinces during the early 1980's at about x2.5 salary and then swapped them for tiny London apartments. We both transferred into media companies in middle to senior management positions in our early 30's and then comfortably bought a series of bigger and bigger London properties as we continued to be promoted. Plus we both accrued copper bottomed final salary pensions along the way.

None of that, absolutely none of that, is available for kids today.

Our children will follow us because they can afford to go the unpaid intern route (graduated debt free, rent free London accommodation, generous allowances) and because we can pull the strings needed to get those unpaid internships in the first place.

Hey, was the world ever fair? Never I guess, but it was probably a little bit more fair when I was in my 20's than it is today. However, what really grates is when I talk to my boomer contemporaries, who remain convinced that they made it purely on their own intellectual strength and moral fortitude. No you didn't! You were astonishingly blessed to be born between 1950 and 1960, into a Britain that smiled upon your little face.

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Yep, yours is a very different career/housing path to mine (I was born in the early 70s) and yet I vaguely work in a similar area (and also grew up on a council estate). At Uni, I just snuck in on the grants side as they were slowly converting them to loans.

The prospect of owning in London was hardly an option - partly because I didn't get there until my late 20s and didn't meet the missus until my 30s. Happy enough with how things turned out though.

It seems to me that we've lost some social mobility in the last few decades - and the paths are far less clearer than they used to be. I still hope things will get better for the early 20 somethings. They did after all look pretty bleak in the early 90s recession, but this is obviously a magnitude worst than that.

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I work in an area related to publishing so I have some sympathy. I lived in shared houses until my mid 30s - even after getting married. Our first non-shared place that we rented was a tiny 1BR flat in a fairly horrible part of Newham. After six months of that, we realised that was the best we'd manage in London so we got out and went to Yorkshire.

While the traditional London centric routes for creative careers might be reducing, opportunities abound for the self starter on the Internet. You do not need to be London based to have such a career nowadays. I know freelancers who live on the south coast or Dorset and everything they need to review/write about comes via the post or email. They usually did have spells in London though I'm not sure it's necessary nowadays.

Equally, I know of one fairly high up journalist for who works for a national rag who now lives in Edinburgh. He does go to London once a fortnight or so though. I know of another in a related area planning to do the same in the next few months. Her OH's job is so specialised - there's basically one of him even in London. He's bringing it with him.

Our London office is slowly shrinking as more of us choose, and are able to work from home. All it takes is for everyone to take a breath and think there must be a better way than packing people into expensive office space, tiny rabbit hutch homes and the sardine tin Tube for sometimes limited extra benefit and perhaps none given the extra cash, wasted time and stress involved.

London will crash, or people will have to move out - and employers will have to let them. London is special and has critical mass for certain industries - but things can change.

Funny I had no idea you went to Yorkshire, I chose it as a random place when I posted. Your career/life path, age, is similar to my OH. Working class background, snuck through Uni on the cheap. Freelancing is the solution, and he jacked in the full time role a few years ago and has been freelancing ever since at a 25% pay cut, to gear up for our eventual London exodus. A lot of writing and film reviewing can be done from hom. Sticking point is he'll review about 4 films a week at London screener cinemas and that aspect of the job would have to be dropped totally, you can't post it (!) and travel costs wouldn't make it worth it. My job is completely office based, little way round it, and would involve a 60% pay cut if we moved now. Plan, simillar to yours, but we're not sorted enough to do it yet, realistically 10 years time. Jack in my job, freelance his, use saved Smokey London money to buy something modest cash. Zero BOMAD backing here or massive earning potential, so it's pointless in the long term staying.

In answer to the OP, sharing in your 50's, just no chance. Something will change, yes, and if it's not the cost of living in London, then it will be a total shift in the workforce and industrys based there. Which by default would mean we'll create a new vibrant creative London elsewhere, and just use the current one for storing nice buildings, empty flats and bankers.

But we were talking recently and agreed that it would be almost impossible for our children to have our careers if they'd started where we did. Not because they don't have the abilities, but because that ladder has been well and truly pulled up.

This. Smart working class kids will struggle, understatement.

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London's population is still rising and fast, so if underhoused people in their 30s and 40s are throwing in the towel and leaving there are even more young people arriving to take their places.

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I quite liked living in shared housed when I was younger! Although I am a pretty untidy *******, and not always to everyone's taste! All the fun of sharing! :blink: I never shared with anyone really horrible!

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Funny I had no idea you went to Yorkshire, I chose it as a random place when I posted. Your career/life path, age, is similar to my OH. Working class background, snuck through Uni on the cheap. Freelancing is the solution, and he jacked in the full time role a few years ago and has been freelancing ever since at a 25% pay cut, to gear up for our eventual London exodus. A lot of writing and film reviewing can be done from hom. Sticking point is he'll review about 4 films a week at London screener cinemas and that aspect of the job would have to be dropped totally, you can't post it (!) and travel costs wouldn't make it worth it. My job is completely office based, little way round it, and would involve a 60% pay cut if we moved now. Plan, simillar to yours, but we're not sorted enough to do it yet, realistically 10 years time. Jack in my job, freelance his, use saved Smokey London money to buy something modest cash. Zero BOMAD backing here or massive earning potential, so it's pointless in the long term staying.

In answer to the OP, sharing in your 50's, just no chance. Something will change, yes, and if it's not the cost of living in London, then it will be a total shift in the workforce and industrys based there. Which by default would mean we'll create a new vibrant creative London elsewhere, and just use the current one for storing nice buildings, empty flats and bankers.

This. Smart working class kids will struggle, understatement.

They certainly will struggle. The regular trajectory for media aspirants is to return home from university to the provinces, laden with debt. Joining the hordes looking for a runner's job while paying London rents just isn't an option. Back home in the back bedroom, they take any job they can get that pays a tad above MacDonalds' rates. Usually inputting data for an insurance giant or similar. After a while, they secure a small rented flat and move out from the parents. London, media and creative work recedes into the memory.

Three years and a couple of small promotions later, they vaguely remember they once intended to be a film editor, video director or a creative whatever, living in vibrant London.

You meet them in bars, saying "I didn't really intend to work for a firm that makes air conditioners, but they do have a surprisingly decent pension scheme. Did I mention that my girlfriend is pregnant?"

Edited by juvenal

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It's not just people sharing flats in London but people sharing bedrooms! Such are the rents in London.. plenty of people in low paying jobs or students having to do this.

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Interesting. My ex wife and I both spent most of our working lives in London media. Both of us came from working class backgrounds, my ex wife from an Essex council estate and I was brought up in Moss Side, Hulme, and Salford.

It's looking likely our children will have London media careers too.

But we were talking recently and agreed that it would be almost impossible for our children to have our careers if they'd started where we did. Not because they don't have the abilities, but because that ladder has been well and truly pulled up.

My ex wife and I both had free university educations, we both sailed into marketing careers with blue chip companies, both bought property in the provinces during the early 1980's at about x2.5 salary and then swapped them for tiny London apartments. We both transferred into media companies in middle to senior management positions in our early 30's and then comfortably bought a series of bigger and bigger London properties as we continued to be promoted. Plus we both accrued copper bottomed final salary pensions along the way.

None of that, absolutely none of that, is available for kids today.

Our children will follow us because they can afford to go the unpaid intern route (graduated debt free, rent free London accommodation, generous allowances) and because we can pull the strings needed to get those unpaid internships in the first place.

Hey, was the world ever fair? Never I guess, but it was probably a little bit more fair when I was in my 20's than it is today. However, what really grates is when I talk to my boomer contemporaries, who remain convinced that they made it purely on their own intellectual strength and moral fortitude. No you didn't! You were astonishingly blessed to be born between 1950 and 1960, into a Britain that smiled upon your little face.

Sorry but by subsidising your kids internships you are very much bought of the 'boomer' problem.

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This. Smart working class kids will struggle, understatement.

As a smart working class (Northern) kid I avoided media jobs and such like liek the plague.

A quick scan of the facts showed that there were 100s of gormless people chasing a few low-paying jobs.

I could not work it out.

If the lure of limelights is your thing then get a proper job and hang around west bars and cheap housing and pull an aspiring actress - there's loads.

I was sort of like an early 90s stage door johnny.

Actresses are easy - but nuts.

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