If The Uk Did Leave The Eu

[EUBanana]

Lots of thick oiks need to be managed for their own good. Seems to be a common europhile argument.

Are you technocrats or democrats?

[the_dork]

There is a natural inclination to look to blame someone for your situation - which is where I think a lot of UKIP voters sit.

Many UKIP voters neither know nor care about policy detail and just want to stick it to the man. I don't think that is a bad thing in itself, it's not a vote wasted.

However I don't think leaving EU or any sweeping change can fix the structural problems causing people to be in the situation they are in right now.

Our country does not have a wealth of natural resources like oil, neither have we invested well in education, infrastructure or science. We've created a massive misallocation of wealth and the last generation has just fleeced the next couple - to top it off the 1970s had all the nice summers.

Leaving EU fixes none of those things.

I agree and am entirely disillusioned with LibLabCon as I suppose we must call them. However, a cursory look at UKIP shows they're not for me. I'll be voting Green even though I'm sure I'd laugh at many of their policies if looked in more detail.

I'd urge people on this site to check out their policies on economics and housing, it's not hippy pie in the sky stuff

[the_dork]

Lots of thick oiks need to be managed for their own good. Seems to be a common europhile argument.

Are you technocrats or democrats?

I'm a democratic technocrat

But really democracy does only work if a critical mass of people have a rough idea what's going on. Recent surveys (see what people think about any issue, where tax goes, no. immigrants, benefits spending etc) suggest this is not the case

[tio]

TAE: European Democracy Is Roadkill
http://www.theautomaticearth.com/debt-rattle-may-19-2014-european-democracy-is-roadkill/

First, there was a passage from Tim Geithner’s new book. Then, there was a 3-part series ‘How The Euro Was Saved’ by Peter Spiegel for the Financial Times. Together, they deliver the following storyline: EU leaders refused to let Greece have a referendum on its bail-out, and toppled PM Papandreou to kill it. Then, afraid that Italian PM Berlusconi would make good on his threat to return to the lira if they stuck to their bail-out conditions, they toppled him. What this means to Europeans is that if they elect a government for their country, and it subsequently falls out of favor with Brussels, they can expect to see it overthrown, and likely have it replaced by a technocrat handpicked by the EU leadership (as happened in Greece and Italy). Ergo: Europe is not a democracy, and pretending otherwise is foolish. Democratic elections in member states are merely empty lip service exercises, because on important topics governments of member states have no say.

This is no trifle matter, even though one may get that idea because of the deafening silence we’ve been blinded with so far on this topic. As I write, it scares me anew. In three days, elections begin for a region that holds 500 million people. But there is a tiny group, largely unelected, in Europe’s capital Brussels, that find they have the moral right to handpick their favorites and topple non-favorites who were elected in democratic elections. If it reminds me of one thing, it’s how Salvador Allende lost the power his people voted him into, and lost his life, in Chile in 1972, because the CIA and Milton Friedman’s Chicago Schoolboys wanted someone else, who would serve THEIR purpose, not that of the people. That is what happened in both Greece and Italy, and we can now prove it.

And no, there were no bombs and machine gun heli’s involved this time around, but that’s not where we should put the dividing line. A coup is a coup.

Degenerate
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/degenerate

adjective
Pronunciation: /dɪˈdʒɛn(ə)rət
Having lost the physical, mental, or moral qualities considered normal and desirable; showing evidence of decline: a degenerate form of a higher civilization

[Neverwhere]

Lots of thick oiks need to be managed for their own good. Seems to be a common europhile argument.

Are you technocrats or democrats?

It would be technically possible to move towards a direct democracy governed by continual digital plebiscites that would give the populace at large control over government policy but instead we're still stuck with first by the post. We don't even have the proportional representation that we have in the EU in our own home parliament (AV was a poor compromise but at least would have been a step in the right direction - it would also have given more voice to those who want to leave the EU as surely UKIP would have had a greater chance at gaining seats in a proportional system). Once we admit that Westminster is largely uninterested in pursuing the most democratic forms of governance possible - and that most contemporary UK politicians are technocrats schooled in the dark arts (i.e. BS) of PPE - it logically follows that democracy is not in fact their ultimate aim.

Managing the thick oiks for their own (i.e. the politician's and/or lobbyist's) benefit is probably closer to the truth and so the UK won't be any more democratic outside of the EU, it'll just be unable to directly influence EU policy. Whether or not that is a problem depends on whether we think the rest of the EU sans-Westminster will run itself in a way that actually benefits the average Brit more/no worse than we currently experience with Westminster's direct influence on EU policy i.e do we think that Westminster is actively sabotaging EU policy to our disadvantage (or is so incompetent that they are failing to spot when EU policy is a disadvantage to us) and if so do we then trust them enough to go back to a situation where they have full control?

[Bruce Banner]

I sense that we are reaching the point where sleeping in the bed you have just shat in might be the only way for UKIP lemmings to understand where the smell comes from.

What exactly do you think is going to happen?

[Neverwhere]

TAE: European Democracy Is Roadkill

http://www.theautomaticearth.com/debt-rattle-may-19-2014-european-democracy-is-roadkill/

Degenerate

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/degenerate

The IMF was behind the scenes in both cases. That's no defence to the EU who are acting appallingly (as I understand it essentially forcing a stealth bail out of French and German banks and arms companies by ensuring the Greeks could continue to make payments), I just suspect that EU membership would make little difference were the UK to find itself in need of economic assitance as the IMF would ensure that their terms were met democracy or no democracy.

[EUBanana]

The leaching of power from Westmonster to Brussels, and the corruption of British officials by EU gravy train money, is one reason why Westmonster is so venal.

Local councils are terrible at democratic accountability for similar reasons : they have no power. When London is just another council in the EU Empire they'll be looking like the town hall too.

Saying the UK doesn't have PR and therefore is a democratic failure seems totally wrongheaded to me. The UK is one of the most successful and oldest democracies in the world, while the EU is a creaking, unpopular, antidemocratic, and scarily enough largely unknown mess. The EU doesn't even have FPTP for it's bigwigs, EU bigwigs are not accountable to anybody other than themselves. I'm an atheist but that tale about beams and motes seems appropriate here.

[FallingAwake]

Leaving EU fixes none of those things.

Look, you may be right (or wrong), but don't you think the British people should be given a SAY in whether they should be part of a Union?

If Scotland are being given a say in whether to be part of a Union, then why not the rest of us when it comes to the European Union?

As far as I can see, the only reason we *may* (IF the Conservatives win the next election outright) have a Referendum over the issue in 2017, is because of UKIP chipping away at the Conversative vote.

[Pindar]

Enough strawmen to field a team there.

Still showing your troll credentials I see. When you've finished sniping with single sentence insults, maybe you'd care to elaborate on why you think these statements are straw men?

[FallingAwake]

I sense that we are reaching the point where sleeping in the bed you have just shat in might be the only way for UKIP lemmings to understand where the smell comes from.

OK, you're pro-EU, we get it.

But do you agree that the British people should at least get a SAY in whether to be part of that Union?

[Neverwhere]

The leaching of power from Westmonster to Brussels, and the corruption of British officials by EU gravy train money, is one reason why Westmonster is so venal.

Local councils are terrible at democratic accountability for similar reasons : they have no power. When London is just another council in the EU Empire they'll be looking like the town hall too.

Saying the UK doesn't have PR and therefore is a democratic failure seems totally wrongheaded to me. The UK is one of the most successful and oldest democracies in the world, while the EU is a creaking, unpopular, antidemocratic, and scarily enough largely unknown mess. The EU doesn't even have FPTP for it's bigwigs, EU bigwigs are not accountable to anybody other than themselves. I'm an atheist but that tale about beams and motes seems appropriate here.

If we're only going for a watered down version of democracy then we can't really say that democracy is our top priority though can we?

Agree with your assessment re. lack of local democratic accountability because the buck can always be passed further up the line. I suspect that Westminster uses "the EU made us do it" as an excuse to pass unpalatable legislation that they secretly want anyway. My point wasn't supposed to be EU = good Westminster = bad but more that, being indivisable, they're all pretty sh*te.

I'm an atheist too so no idea what the beams and motes tale is

Edited May 20, 2014 by Lo-fi

[EUBanana]

If we're only going for a watered down version of democracy then we can't really say that democracy is our top priority though can we?

Agree with your assessment re. lack of local democratic accountability because the buck can always be passed further up the line. I suspect that Westminster uses "the EU made us do it" as an excuse to pass unpalatable legislation that they secretly want anyway. My point wasn't supposed to be EU = good Westminster = bad but more that, being indivisable, they're all a pretty sh*te.

I'm an atheist too so no idea what the beams and motes tale is

Politicians are all pretty sh*te, I agree. IMO the solution is to keep them as close to the voter as possible, so they can feel our beady eye upon them keeping them honest (inasmuch as a pol can be honest). Multiple layers of bureaucracy, tangled webs of jurisdiction, utterly opaque lawmaking processes (we can't even agree how many laws emanate from Brussels and how many do not for gawds sake, they aren't even accountable to the bureaucracy let alone the voter!), these are NOT going to help. They are a recipe for corruption on grand scale. If the EU had more money and more power it would be a nightmare, even as it is I hear the junkets in Brussels are the stuff of legend.

Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mote_and_the_Beam. By which I was meaning, Westminster democracy certainly has it's flaws, but compared to the EU they aren't even in the same ballpark.

[Neverwhere]

Politicians are all pretty sh*te, I agree. IMO the solution is to keep them as close to the voter as possible, so they can feel our beady eye upon them keeping them honest (inasmuch as a pol can be honest). Multiple layers of bureaucracy, tangled webs of jurisdiction, utterly opaque lawmaking processes (we can't even agree how many laws emanate from Brussels and how many do not for gawds sake, they aren't even accountable to the bureaucracy let alone the voter!), these are NOT going to help. They are a recipe for corruption on grand scale. If the EU had more money and more power it would be a nightmare, even as it is I hear the junkets in Brussels are the stuff of legend.

Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mote_and_the_Beam. By which I was meaning, Westminster democracy certainly has it's flaws, but compared to the EU they aren't even in the same ballpark.

100% agree with the statement in bold, which is why I would advocate a direct digital democracy so that we as voters could direct all major policy decisions without the need for middlemen "representatives" in the House of Commons. I'm still not convinced with the whole comparison thing though: Westminster politicians are inextricably part of the current EU, not clearly divisible from it for the purposes of comparison.

A beam in the eye sounds painful!

[EUBanana]

Actually, my biggest concern about the EU is one that Minsky would understand.

One of the arguments for a united Europe is so we never have another European war. Unfortunately, this is precisely my concern. I fear such a period of stability would be ended by Europe going to the mother of all wars with another entity of similar size at some point. That the enlarged state has fewer 'forest fires' and ends with a massive conflagration.

Is that silly?

Captain Blackadder: You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war two great super-armies developed. Us, the Russians and the French on one side, Germany and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea being that each army would act as the other's deterrent. That way, there could never be a war.

Private Baldrick: Except, this is sort of a war, isn't it?

Captain Blackadder: That's right. There was one tiny flaw in the plan.

Lieutenant George: O, what was that?

Captain Blackadder: It was ********.

[slacker]

Look, you may be right (or wrong), but don't you think the British people should be given a SAY in whether they should be part of a Union?

I get the argument and a few years ago I was passionately in favour of it, but I believe economically it would be catastrophic now.

We could end up getting ourselves in to more of a mess with an EU vote - as people will be sticking it to the man - when it isn't really the EU that has caused most of their problems - it's previous UK generations who have nationalised, mortgaged and neglected our infrastructure - and transferred swathes of future wealth to themselves.

I feel the same about the current venom against bankers - they've made a mess but not nearly as much as the people running our country have for the last 30 years - but everyone wants to stick it to the man.

[slacker]

Deleted as arguing about voting which I don't like doing

Edited May 20, 2014 by slacker

[okaycuckoo]

Leaving the EU would be a big problem for the banks. They'll continue their piracy - the captive population is tapped out, so probably on the Chinese - but that means they'll be tied in even tighter to the state.

I agree with referenda - but that's not a conservative thing, because in their philosophy all legitimacy comes from the state, not the voters. Even if it comes to a vote, I give as much chance of passing as the Scots independence vote.

It's all gone a bit Brazil, hasn't it?

[tio]

The IMF was behind the scenes in both cases. That's no defence to the EU who are acting appallingly (as I understand it essentially forcing a stealth bail out of French and German banks and arms companies by ensuring the Greeks could continue to make payments),

Indeed, you may go so far as to say that the EU is not fit for purpose. I think looking into their accounts might be a good place to start (maintains straight face). Interlocking banking (govt) debt does indeed explain some of their actions, however, one might be drawn to the conclusion that the EU is being run for the bankers and the shadowy regional sociopaths they represent? No? ..

I just suspect that EU membership would make little difference were the UK to find itself in need of economic assitance as the IMF would ensure that their terms were met democracy or no democracy.

No difference whatsoever. However any 'structural adjustments' we were proscribed would be for our own mistakes, to be resolved through our (albeit flawed) democracy. Southern Europe is taking it in the sternsheets on behalf of others. This is what sovereignty, or the loss of it, is all about. You give it up at your peril.

Physician, heal thyself!

[snowflux]

Still showing your troll credentials I see. When you've finished sniping with single sentence insults, maybe you'd care to elaborate on why you think these statements are straw men?

Well, here's strawman no. 1: Who has claimed that BMW, Mercedes, Renault, Peugeot etc. would suddenly decide to stop exporting to the UK in the event of the UK leaving the EU?

[campervanman]

OK, you're pro-EU, we get it.

But do you agree that the British people should at least get a SAY in whether to be part of that Union?

I think it is inevitable given the anti EU hysteria in much of the UK media but a referendum should take place when people are in possession of the full facts not just the D Ex/Sun versions of the facts.

[Pindar]

Well, here's strawman no. 1: Who has claimed that BMW, Mercedes, Renault, Peugeot etc. would suddenly decide to stop exporting to the UK in the event of the UK leaving the EU?

Hardly.It is merely making the point that the media - especially the Guardian and BBC - like to scaremonger about corporations withdrawing from the UK. If anything, corporations would prefer the UK for its "less fussy" labour laws.

[campervanman]

Hardly.It is merely making the point that the media - especially the Guardian and BBC - like to scaremonger about corporations withdrawing from the UK. If anything, corporations would prefer the UK for its "less fussy" labour laws.

Well here is what the boss of Nissan had to say on the subject as reported the hardly pro EU Daily Mail:

Carlos Ghosn, chief executive of the Japanese car giant, said it could pull its investment and thousands of jobs if the UK voted to leave the EU.

Mr Ghosn added: ‘You cannot consider the UK independent of its environment. If the UK is part of Europe it’s a completely different situation than if it is not part of Europe.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2494212/Tory-anger-Nissan-boss-warns-leaving-UK-quit-EU-despite-praising-firms-blessed-Sunderland-factory.html

[EUBanana]

I think it is inevitable given the anti EU hysteria in much of the UK media but a referendum should take place when people are in possession of the full facts not just the D Ex/Sun versions of the facts.

It's those thick oiks again, they need to be educated before they can be allowed to vote.

I been following the EU's antics for ten years. I know what I'm doing when I'm voting ukip - again.

[EUBanana]

Well here is what the boss of Nissan had to say on the subject as reported the hardly pro EU Daily Mail:

Carlos Ghosn, chief executive of the Japanese car giant, said it could pull its investment and thousands of jobs if the UK voted to leave the EU.

Mr Ghosn added: You cannot consider the UK independent of its environment. If the UK is part of Europe its a completely different situation than if it is not part of Europe.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2494212/Tory-anger-Nissan-boss-warns-leaving-UK-quit-EU-despite-praising-firms-blessed-Sunderland-factory.html

What power is it that makes the EU turn lefties into corporate shills?