Shopping For A Second Hand Car

[anonguest]

Just a quick canvassing of opinions here......

Looking to a get a 'new' car. Actually second hand. Never bought a genuinely new car in my life. Always prefer those that are anything between 1 and 3 years old.

This time, having watched the technology change beyond all recognition over the last 25+ years from the days when the word diesel was associated with noisy smelly slow London black taxis, I have decided to get a diesel (automatic).

One thing that strikes me about many of the cars in the age category described is that they have already clocked up what, traditionally, would be described as high mileage (e.g 80,000 miles on a barely 4 year old car, etc). Not surprising given the economy they offer, etc.

Am also aware of the fact that not all miles are the same (i.e. 80,000 'around town' miles is vastly worse than 80,000 'motorway' miles).

Nevertheless 80K miles is still quite a bit? It's approaching the level at which more major maintenance and repairs on a car start to become more likely? (e.g. gearbox, etc).

BUT......have been told, as a figure of speech, that as a rule 100,000 miles on a diesel can be considered as being equivalent to half that on a petrol engined car. Any truth in this? Could I buy such a high mileage diesel engined car and expect its general 'wear' (engine wise) to be no worse than a petrol engined car with about half that?

[mikthe20]

How many miles a year do you do and is it mainly motorway? If it's mainly local driving a diesel could be a false economy.

[OnionTerror]

Just a quick canvassing of opinions here......

Looking to a get a 'new' car. Actually second hand. Never bought a genuinely new car in my life. Always prefer those that are anything between 1 and 3 years old.

This time, having watched the technology change beyond all recognition from the days when the word diesel was associated with noisy smelly London black taxis, I have decided to get a diesel (automatic).

One thing that strikes me about many of the cars in the age category described is that they have already clocked up what, traditionally, would be described as high mileage (e.g 80,000 miles on a barely 4 year old car, etc). Not surprising given the economy they offer, etc.

Am also aware of the fact that not all miles are the same (i.e. 80,000 'around town' miles is vastly worse than 80,000 'motorway' miles).

Nevertheless 80K miles is still quite a bit? It's approaching the level at which more major maintenance and repairs on a car start to become more likely? (e.g. gearbox, etc).

BUT......have been told, as a figure of speech, that as a rule 100,000 miles on a diesel can be considered as being equivalent to half that on a petrol engined car. Any truth in this? Could I buy such a high mileage diesel engined car and expect its general 'wear' (engine wise) to be no worse than a petrol engined car with about half that?

If 80k mileage cars that are that age, I suspect are old reps cars. If a car is three years old (that's when they are typically swapped)..that's when they're due for their first MOT...that's potentially a lot of wear & tear in a short period of time...

[OnionTerror]

How many miles a year do you do and is it mainly motorway? If it's mainly local driving a diesel could be a false economy.

& AFAIK, automatics are more expensive to manuals too..

[anonguest]

How many miles a year do you do and is it mainly motorway? If it's mainly local driving a diesel could be a false economy.

I do what I am led to believe is 'average' mileage - about 10K miles per year. About 50% urban and 50% motorway.

BUT....given that the mpg of diesels is typically at least 25% better than an equivalent petrol engine for all of the driving modes (e.g urban, motorway, etc). How on earth could predominantly urban driving on a diesel be a false economy?

To answer the other repliers....yes I am sure that most of the cars I have looked at (at car supermarkets) are ex-rep type cars.

I am also aware that auto gearboxes are costlier to maintain/repair, but that is not an issue as I always prefer to drive autos and accept this extra long term cost factor.

I will be assuming that for any given make/model the overall car itself will not differ in long term reliability/safety/longevity/etc whether it is a petrol or diesel variant. My question really relates to just the engine itself (and very closely related aspects).

[swissy_fit]

10k miles isn't enough to justify a diesel.

1. You are poisoning everyone with tiny particles.

2. You are proposing to buy a diesel exactly at the point when maintenance is likely to become expensive.

I will be assuming that for any given make/model the overall car itself will not differ in long term reliability/safety/longevity/etc whether it is a petrol or diesel variant. My question really relates to just the engine itself (and very closely related aspects).

This is a false assumption.

Rather than everyone on here try and convince you, take a bit of time and read this site, it's excellent.

The real MPG figures make very interesting reading - diesels and towns don't mix, they're only good on the open road.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/

[OnionTerror]

I do what I am led to believe is 'average' mileage - about 10K miles per year. About 50% urban and 50% motorway.

BUT....given that the mpg of diesels is typically at least 25% better than an equivalent petrol engine for all of the driving modes (e.g urban, motorway, etc). How on earth could predominantly urban driving on a diesel be a false economy?

To answer the other repliers....yes I am sure that most of the cars I have looked at (at car supermarkets) are ex-rep type cars.

I am also aware that auto gearboxes are costlier to maintain/repair, but that is not an issue as I always prefer to drive autos and accept this extra long term cost factor.

I will be assuming that for any given make/model the overall car itself will not differ in long term reliability/safety/longevity/etc whether it is a petrol or diesel variant. My question really relates to just the engine itself (and very closely related aspects).

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2332107/Petrol-vs-diesel-cars-Drivers-warned-diesel-filter-trap.html

Another problem that a lot of cars suffer from, if you do very low mileage, is that you often get flat batteries. They don't have the time to charge themselves. One tip I heard, is to turn your lights on...that forces the alternator to start.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Too many variables , you'll need to be more specific. Different automatics have different (additonal) service requirements e.g. the VW 6 speed DSG wet gearbox.

What takes your fancy?

[MrPin]

10k miles isn't enough to justify a diesel.

1. You are poisoning everyone with tiny particles.

2. You are proposing to buy a diesel exactly at the point when maintenance is likely to become expensive.

This is a false assumption.

Rather than everyone on here try and convince you, take a bit of time and read this site, it's excellent.

The real MPG figures make very interesting reading - diesels and towns don't mix, they're only good on the open road.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/

I'd agree with both those points Mr Fit!

[anonguest]

Too many variables , you'll need to be more specific. Different automatics have different (additonal) service requirements e.g. the VW 6 speed DSG wet gearbox.

What takes your fancy?

Funny you mention that, the VW DSG gearbox was featuring significantly in my 'shopping list'. Anything I should know about that bit of hardware? Is it good? bad? expensive to keep/maintain over the long term (i.e 10 years or more)

[OnionTerror]

I currently have an Alfa diesel...I used to do, anything from 10-15k a year, now I'm lucky to do 4k. Mine is pre these new filters (its over 12 years old, and I've had it over 7 years)...

It is fantastically torquey, however, I'm looking to get a petrol now. Petrol is cheaper, its just finding something just as torquey...

[mikthe20]

I do what I am led to believe is 'average' mileage - about 10K miles per year. About 50% urban and 50% motorway.

BUT....given that the mpg of diesels is typically at least 25% better than an equivalent petrol engine for all of the driving modes (e.g urban, motorway, etc). How on earth could predominantly urban driving on a diesel be a false economy?

Diesels only get good MPG "on a run". Around town they're about the same as petrol. As diesel is more expensive than petrol at the pumps then if you only did town driving a diesel would be a poor choice. They are also usually more expensive to buy, although retain their value more because so many people are under the misconception that they are always more efficient. Most modern diesels need to do a DPF regeneration cycle to get rid of all the crap from the filters as it's such a dirty fuel. This requires the engine getting hot by the car doing some speed for a while. If therefore diesels aren't taken on a run they can develop serious problems with expensive repairs.

As I say, for low miles a petrol would probably make more sense.

[long time lurking]

10k miles isn't enough to justify a diesel.

1. You are poisoning everyone with tiny particles.

2. You are proposing to buy a diesel exactly at the point when maintenance is likely to become expensive.

This is a false assumption.

Rather than everyone on here try and convince you, take a bit of time and read this site, it's excellent.

The real MPG figures make very interesting reading - diesels and towns don't mix, they're only good on the open road.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/

Find that hard to believe when just adout all modern deisels produce maximum torque at around 2000 rpm and are far higher geared than the equivilant petrol

[mikthe20]

Find that hard to believe when just adout all modern deisels produce maximum torque at around 2000 rpm and are far higher geared than the equivilant petrol

Doesn't mean the engine isn't stressed - that torque is achieved using turbos. The old non-turbo diesels were very reliable but couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding.

[Greg Bowman]

Find that hard to believe when just adout all modern deisels produce maximum torque at around 2000 rpm and are far higher geared than the equivilant petrol

+1 Real life example I have an Audi Q3 and an Alfa Gulietta. Q3 177hp Sportsline diesel (and heavier car) Alfa 170 hp Veloce multi air Petrol. The Q3 returns 40MPG and is actually a better engine the alfa in spite of the hype only returns 33-34. Both driven mix of town and motorway. Both within pennies same lease cost.

So inspite of cheaper petrol still better off with Q3.

Second hand cars best buy probably max 2 owner 5 year old car so that initial off lease fixing up already done. But modern diesel still your best bet if purely town go for something very small and petrol Ford Ka etc

[OnionTerror]

+1 Real life example I have an Audi Q3 and an Alfa Gulietta. Q3 177hp Sportsline diesel (and heavier car) Alfa 170 hp Veloce multi air Petrol. The Q3 returns 40MPG and is actually a better engine the alfa in spite of the hype only returns 33-34. Both driven mix of town and motorway. Both within pennies same lease cost.

So inspite of cheaper petrol still better off with Q3.

Second hand cars best buy probably max 2 owner 5 year old car so that initial off lease fixing up already done. But modern diesel still your best bet if purely town go for something very small and petrol Ford Ka etc

How do diesel automatics compare to its petrol equivalent?

[Greg Bowman]

How do diesel automatics compare to its petrol equivalent?

In terms of driving nicer as flat torque curve which comes in earlier. Forgot to mention that the Audi is auto so probably would be even better on fuel. Although new 7 speed and 8 speed auto boxes mean the difference between auto and manual negligible.

Just happen to have two newish cars amongst others at the mo. I always buy pre used in that 5 year bracket normally change all fluids straight away. Over 100 cars in 20 odd years. Never had a breakdown.

I always do belts, fluids, brakes and tyres and keep it that way.

The particulate filter thing is an old biddy's problem give it a blast once a month and never a problem.

Final point is as Mike Rutherford says the killer is depreciationso buy right and within reason MPG not the biggest issue

[MrPin]

The particulate filter thing is an old biddy's problem give it a blast once a month and never a problem.

Final point is as Mike Rutherford says the killer is depreciationso buy right and within reason MPG not the biggest issue

Not for me it isn't!

[long time lurking]

I currently have an Alfa diesel...I used to do, anything from 10-15k a year, now I'm lucky to do 4k. Mine is pre these new filters (its over 12 years old, and I've had it over 7 years)...

It is fantastically torquey, however, I'm looking to get a petrol now. Petrol is cheaper, its just finding something just as torquey...

Unless you double the CC of the engine you're never going to get the same torque from a petrol as you do from a modern diesel

[OnionTerror]

Unless you double the CC of the engine you're never going to get the same torque from a petrol as you do from a modern diesel

That's my fear...I've got a 2.4 litre jobber too...Might have to find myself a Hummer then...

[long time lurking]

Doesn't mean the engine isn't stressed - that torque is achieved using turbos. The old non-turbo diesels were very reliable but couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding.

Stressed yes but it was the mpg point i find it hard to believe VNT turbos have revolutionised diesel engines along with electronically controlled fueling

DPF problems don`t have to be very expensive you can have them deleted from the ECU and replace the actual filter with a lookalike item even though our friends in the EU don't like that being done and have forced changes to our M.O.T

[LiveinHope]

If you live in a hilly place then I would avoid an automatic if you value fuel effcifency and frustration free motoring.

My last car (peugeot 205 1.9l diesel) did about 250k miles, same everything except timing belt changes and fuel pump, and it returned a reliable 60mpg with any driving style, or so it seemed. Never used any oil. Same clutch and gearbox.

Current car is an 8 yr old Peugeot 206 SW 1.4 diesel. Again I get about 60mpg. A lot more acceleration than the 205. I do a lot less mileage now.

I would only consdier diesel for towing. I didn't use either car for towing. A Mitsubishi pickup and a Land Rover did that.

Now that petrol cars are up around 60 mpg I would consider petrol next time.

I don't like automatics as I live in hilly Devon.

[long time lurking]

Looking at modern diesel cars my biggest worry on service items would be clutches as virtually all modern diesels have dual mass flywheels and they aint cheap ,a mates BMW 320 just failed, the clutch/flywheel kit alone was almost 1K and that was just the parts

[anonguest]

Thanks all for the various points raised and info/links provided - lots of food for thought.

That said, however, the main 'theme' of my enquiry hasn't really been addressed - that of whether or not a diesel engine is, for want of better words, 'stronger' and more 'durable'.

Put another way.....IF maintained exactly and strictly as per manufacturers guidelines is a petrol engine just as capable of reaching, say, 200,000 miles as a diesel? Which type of engine is likely to incur greater cumulative costs along the way to get to that arbitrary landmark?

[Mr. Miyagi]

Thanks all for the various points raised and info/links provided - lots of food for thought.

That said, however, the main 'theme' of my enquiry hasn't really been addressed - that of whether or not a diesel engine is, for want of better words, 'stronger' and more 'durable'.

Put another way.....IF maintained exactly and strictly as per manufacturers guidelines is a petrol engine just as capable of reaching, say, 200,000 miles as a diesel? Which type of engine is likely to incur greater cumulative costs along the way to get to that arbitrary landmark?

Well, Mrs Miyagi 51 plate 1.6 petrol peugeot 307 has just reached 170,000 miles and is still going strong. It gets regular oil and filter changes and the cam belt done every 60k miles.