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Dave Beans

Lack Of 90 Day Consultation Of Redundancy

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How does it work? If you are kicked off site after only five days as the company goes bust, do you still get 12 weeks pay? Does it depend on your tenure there?

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I think 90 days only applies if a certain amount of people are affected. If a company goes bust I'm not sure anything applies apart from perhaps statutory redundancy pay which is something like one weeks pay for every year served, need to be there one or two years to qualify. Could be wrong.

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I think 90 days only applies if a certain amount of people are affected. If a company goes bust I'm not sure anything applies apart from perhaps statutory redundancy pay which is something like one weeks pay for every year served, need to be there one or two years to qualify. Could be wrong.

Its over 20 people...

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Consultation generally applies when there are business reasons for changes in headcount. If there is no money left it would be government statutory redundancy only I reckon, unless the business gets purchased or something. I've only been made redundant once and that was consultation based rather than company bust.

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https://www.cipd.co.uk/hr-resources/factsheets/redundancy.aspx#link_0

Consulting employees

Collective consultations with recognised trade unions or elected representatives must currently start at least 45 days (reduced from 90 days from 6 April 2013) beforehand for proposed redundancy dismissals of 100 or more employees, and at least 30 days before notification of redundancies for 20-99 employees. However, the 20 or more employees rule is currently the subject of litigation which may affect when the consultation provisions apply in future.

If collective consultation is required, it must be completed before notice of dismissal is given to any of the employees. The law requires meaningful consultation - it is not enough only to inform. The maximum compensation that can be awarded if an employer fails to consult is 90 days’ pay. If there are no recognised trade unions or employee representatives, the employer must facilitate the election of representatives by the employees for the redundancy consultation. Acas have issued guidance on managing collective redundancies1.

At the start of the consultation process the employer is legally obliged to give the following information to the representatives:

the reason for the redundancy dismissals

the number of proposed redundancies and their job types

the total number of employees affected

the proposed methods of selection

the procedure to be followed in dealing with the redundancies

the method of calculating redundancy payment.

Employers are also required to consult individual employees and give them reasonable warning of impending redundancy.

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How does it work? If you are kicked off site after only five days as the company goes bust, do you still get 12 weeks pay? Does it depend on your tenure there?

Has the firm gone bust?

Do (did?) you have a permanent (not agency or temporary) contract?

Do you have more than two years service.

Assuming the 5 days reference means 'after consultation period started?

The area you need to be looking in is unfair dismissal. With an additional slant on failure to consult. The usual remedy would be the 90 days pay (less any already forthcoming) but this would depend on the factors above.

Qualifying length of service and local agreements would determine any redundancy payment which would be in addition to the above.

Have a look at the ACAS website and give them a ring in the week. They will know what sort of questions to ask you.

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Has the firm gone bust?

Do (did?) you have a permanent (not agency or temporary) contract?

permanent

Do you have more than two years service.

No, about six months, even though I was there over a year

Assuming the 5 days reference means 'after consultation period started?

There was no consultation period.. After five days, that was it...site closed.

The area you need to be looking in is unfair dismissal. With an additional slant on failure to consult. The usual remedy would be the 90 days pay (less any already forthcoming) but this would depend on the factors above.

The company went bust. This all happened nearly 18 months ago. It's already been through a tribunal. I'm trying to work out what I get, if anything.

Qualifying length of service and local agreements would determine any redundancy payment which would be in addition to the above.

Have a look at the ACAS website and give them a ring in the week. They will know what sort of questions to ask you.

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How does it work? If you are kicked off site after only five days as the company goes bust, do you still get 12 weeks pay? Does it depend on your tenure there?

If the company has gone bust then they don't have the money to pay you. You just join the list of creditors. I don't know what precedence you get in the pecking order when the remaining assets (if any) are realised.

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If the company has gone bust then they don't have the money to pay you. You just join the list of creditors. I don't know what precedence you get in the pecking order when the remaining assets (if any) are realised.

Any payouts will be from the purse of the tax payer, much like the redundancy pay (which I wasn't entitled to).

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Any payouts will be from the purse of the tax payer, much like the redundancy pay (which I wasn't entitled to).

Had you only been working for the company five days ?

If so I would say you would get nothing, not being entitled to statutory redundancy would also suggest the same as that is the minimum entitlement

You need to have been employed for twelve weeks to be entitled to 39 hours notice

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Had you only been working for the company five days ?

If so I would say you would get nothing, not being entitled to statutory redundancy would also suggest the same as that is the minimum entitlement

You need to have been employed for twelve weeks to be entitled to 39 hours notice

Permanently, six months, temporarily, six months before...

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Permanently, six months, temporarily, six months before...

You have six Months service. What does your contract say about notice periods?

Your short service in a complication here although it may not rule you out of 90 days compensation in a class action. The simple answer for them was to lay you off before entering consultation then there would be no doubt.

Your best bet is to ring ACAS with your employment contract in hand and see what they have to say. Not everything is black and white in these instances and there may be a bit of employment case law which strengthens your position.

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You have six Months service. What does your contract say about notice periods?

Your short service in a complication here although it may not rule you out of 90 days compensation in a class action. The simple answer for them was to lay you off before entering consultation then there would be no doubt.

Your best bet is to ring ACAS with your employment contract in hand and see what they have to say. Not everything is black and white in these instances and there may be a bit of employment case law which strengthens your position.

Oh gawd, I'll need to drag out my contract...

Its either going to be straight forward or hugely complicated...When I was made redundant before, it was given 30 days notice, then it was goodbye, but then I was at that job for more than 5 years. In this instance, I thought I would be entitled to 90 days pay, but who knows..

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Oh gawd, I'll need to drag out my contract...

Its either going to be straight forward or hugely complicated...When I was made redundant before, it was given 30 days notice, then it was goodbye, but then I was at that job for more than 5 years. In this instance, I thought I would be entitled to 90 days pay, but who knows..

What you're entitled to is what it says in your contract, subject to legal minima. 90 days sounds a lot unless you've been there many years and/or are in exceptionally well-protected employment. That's making the distinction between your legal entitlement and what an employer might exercise discretion to pay, which can be a fair bit more.

But if the employer is bust, your entitlement takes its place alongside other creditors: no matter what you're entitled to, none of you can expect to get paid money that doesn't exist[1]. For example, if a supplier is owed a lot of money, they could go bust in a domino effect. Some of your less sympathetic rivals for whatever money can be raised would be the likes of landlords and HMRC.

[1] Sometimes insurance might cover such losses. Or if you could prove fraud against the directors of the company, that could open the door to suing them personally for your money.

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I have just been made redundant 31st jan, we had 45 days consultation period then the axe started falling, selections were random (so no comebacks) our payout included "any monies due in lieu of notice" so not sure on the 90 days i thought if you were getting the statutory gov minimum you also get 90 days either worked or paid in lieu unsure though.

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Sorry Dave, but the coalition sold your 90 days consultation down the river a while back. No fuss, no shouting, just a backroom deal in Westminster.

From the UK.gov's website-

There’s no time limit for how long the period of consultation should be, but the minimum is:

##20 to 99 redundancies - the consultation must start at least 30 days before any dismissals take effect

##100 or more redundancies - the consultation must start at least 45 days before any dismissals take effect

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Sorry Dave, but the coalition sold your 90 days consultation down the river a while back.

If they're bust, consultation of any kind is a complete red herring. Irrelevant, regardless of workers rights legislation even back in the days when unions had it all their own way.

Consultation works if there's an ongoing business. So for example if an activity is terminated or relocated, you consult over options like redundancy packages vs alternative jobs in the company for the people affected.

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Sorry Dave, but the coalition sold your 90 days consultation down the river a while back. No fuss, no shouting, just a backroom deal in Westminster.

From the UK.gov's website-

There’s no time limit for how long the period of consultation should be, but the minimum is:

##20 to 99 redundancies - the consultation must start at least 30 days before any dismissals take effect

##100 or more redundancies - the consultation must start at least 45 days before any dismissals take effect

I believe the rules changed fairly recently...This happened the best part of 18 months ago...

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Any payouts will be from the purse of the tax payer, much like the redundancy pay (which I wasn't entitled to).

Damn. So much for bailouts being a Labour thing. Osbrownomics proceeds apace.

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Sorry Dave, but the coalition sold your 90 days consultation down the river a while back. No fuss, no shouting, just a backroom deal in Westminster.

From the UK.gov's website-

There's no time limit for how long the period of consultation should be, but the minimum is:

##20 to 99 redundancies - the consultation must start at least 30 days before any dismissals take effect

##100 or more redundancies - the consultation must start at least 45 days before any dismissals take effect

Are those redundancy numbers for the whole firm or single premises/branches, eg 15 redundancies at 10 branches qualify for the 45 days?

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Are those redundancy numbers for the whole firm or single premises/branches, eg 15 redundancies at 10 branches qualify for the 45 days?

Is that a collective redundancy or 15 individual redundancies? If it's collective it implies the 15 people are in some sense a team, and the 10 branches look like a red herring.

When I was made redundant in 2010 after my former employer had been taken over, there was no collective consultation, but the individual consultation process was well-handled (options were to look for another role within the company or take a payoff). But that wasn't a company going bust, so normal procedures applied.

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I have just been made redundant 31st jan, we had 45 days consultation period then the axe started falling, selections were random (so no comebacks) our payout included "any monies due in lieu of notice" so not sure on the 90 days i thought if you were getting the statutory gov minimum you also get 90 days either worked or paid in lieu unsure though.

The 90 days (as was) or 45 now are normal working days you would work them under notice with pay. If for some reason the firm does not need your services past a given date they must pay you for all (or what is left of the time period).

This would depend on your employment length. Less than 2 years (this used to be one year but was also changed recently) they could just tell you do one and there would be little you could do. With the two years you have an unfair dismissal route (they would need to prove they did not discriminate against you) and unpaid notice.

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Are those redundancy numbers for the whole firm or single premises/branches, eg 15 redundancies at 10 branches qualify for the 45 days?

It gets complicated. Some had less than twenty, but others had more. So it depends if they are treated individually, or as one.

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How does it work? If you are kicked off site after only five days as the company goes bust, do you still get 12 weeks pay? Does it depend on your tenure there?

My condolences 'Dave' - hope you find something new.

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