Bloo Loo Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Bit like a Money Mose, leading his faithful? sounds more like Property 419 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Blizzard) Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 (edited) ...You are selling a very expensive service to people who, in the main, do not have a lot cash. That is not a good business to be in. Landlords aren't selling a service of any kind. They evict people from their homes and then demand money to allow them back. It amazes me that so many people seem to be fooled by it. Edited March 23, 2014 by (Blizzard) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little fish Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 It's fascinating. I see that The Mortgage Works has the same clause in their 2012 T&C's, albeit rather more heavily disguised. BTL is nasty! Who would enter into such a contract? At any time the bank has the right to close out your leveraged position. I guess that people in the UK really do believe that house prices only ever go up. B&B bought Mortgage Express from Lloyds Group in 1997 whilst they were still a mutual then listed in 2000. What more pressing evidence do we need of a predatory financial sector than a mutual that becomes a plc and then starts writing BTL mortgages with clauses like this? I love the hpc massive. Every time I think that I'm cynical enough to know what's what I get schooled about just how nasty and predatory our financial sector really is and the extent to which the price of shelter has been set by gullible idiots who would like to see themselves as canny but are in reality quisilings of the worse sort. "It's fascinating" I agree. Once I made clients sit and listen while I read out the whole T&C's of a UCB BTL contract. It took me forever. I explained each term best as I could. They still bought a BTL (through another broker). A year later they were back. They had lost £36,000 in equity, had a troublesome tenant (normal person who wanted basic maintenance done) and wanted me to help!! Sadly I have a collection of contracts from all walks of legals which I keep to amuse myself with. BTL is a particularly malicious contract. The BTL'er will never win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattW Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I love the hpc massive. Every time I think that I'm cynical enough to know what's what I get schooled about just how nasty and predatory our financial sector really is and the extent to which the price of shelter has been set by gullible idiots who would like to see themselves as canny but are in reality quisilings of the worse sort. + 1. Although my understanding of things financial is a bit below most others on this site. Had to look up the word 'quisling'. Perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bland Unsight Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 Had to look up the word 'quisling'. Perfect. I've been wrong before but if what we want is decent jobs and decent homes for the median household, allowing the banks to lend lots of money to a bunch of clowns so that their willingness to borrow can make our homes unaffordable and push up the price of land to a point where homes cannot be built at prices that people can afford is letting the tail wag the dog. The economy is not a popularity contest. Letting morons use debt to bid up the prices of crap flats to prices that nobody can afford leads to fragile banks, misallocation of capital and morons with massive fantasy mortgages on crap flats. All of these things reduce growth and lead to a reduction in the future income from crap flats. A bubble seeks its own destruction. All you need to decide is whether it is a bubble or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bland Unsight Posted March 24, 2014 Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 BTL is a particularly malicious contract. Amen to that. Calling back to my earlier incorrect suggestion that a mortgage wasn't an overdraft, I stand corrected. A BTL mortgage appears to be an overdraft. The other side of this coin is that the failure of the banks to call in all the BTL mortgages where they have a Power of Sale and have been stitched by the 0.5% policy rate is suggestive that the whole UK property market is nothing but a massive extend and pretend play by the banks. Yes, they could close out these shitty loans but as nobody has the earnings to step into the breach it would simply set off a fall in house prices. All just speculation on my part. Alternative analyses welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Amen to that. Calling back to my earlier incorrect suggestion that a mortgage wasn't an overdraft, I stand corrected. A BTL mortgage appears to be an overdraft. The other side of this coin is that the failure of the banks to call in all the BTL mortgages where they have a Power of Sale and have been stitched by the 0.5% policy rate is suggestive that the whole UK property market is nothing but a massive extend and pretend play by the banks. Yes, they could close out these shitty loans but as nobody has the earnings to step into the breach it would simply set off a fall in house prices. All just speculation on my part. Alternative analyses welcome. A parallel (not necessarily alternative) possibility is that the middle management of said banks believe their own hype and are also up to their eyeballs in mortgages of various kinds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venger Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Thanks for that info on latest position, okaycuckoo, re barristers. I have followed almost every post on the issue of West Brom on Property 118. It is as though that guy has all of them under some kind of spell. He requests money for this or that and they cough up with no questions asked. Then after they have complied with his wishes, and coughed up money to him they then spend days and post after post thanking him profusely, and telling him how amazing he is. It is truly strange – thanks for your kind comments about my situation. I had no choice but to blame myself in order to stop the resentment towards what UKAR had done to me. I have legitimate mortgages with them which I took out for the same reasons as other landlords, i.e. for capital growth and income. After they perceived a breach I ended up with them taking my rental gains and my children's University funds and various ISA nest eggs to pay them! I must stress that I have 3 other portfolio lenders who also paid contested service charges for me and they had no issues negotiating a settlement without the need to instruct LPA receivers. In fact some of these other lenders agreed on a 20 yr term repayment on any service charges paid because (using their own words) it was the height of the recession and I was not the only portfolio landlord contesting unfair charges whilst having non paying tenants. ....I still think my breach was MEx's perception but my lawyer advised me that whilst I paid him to fight this accusation, LPA receivers would takeover my portfolio. The costs involved in getting an injunction against LPA receivership are sizeable and it would take more than the 30 days MEx gave to even get a court date! So I had the choices of- 1) Pay loads and potentially get an injunction to regain a portfolio that might not even be intact and with definitely a worse cash flow. Don't forget this is just an injunction against LPA receivership and I still had to fight to prove that the breach did not happen. 2) Take it on the chin because this is how business is conducted and that it's nothing personal!!! I chose the latter, which proved to be correct because I am still around whilst my 2 former business partners who chose the other path, ended up losing everything. TBH, I don't have time for any UKAR personnel anymore. I have copies of letters which I would be more than happy to superimpose any of your names on it and send it all to you over a period of days, so you can live for a few weeks from my eyes! I am sure after that, you would lose all sympathy and gullibility of listening to government sponsored bullying! My own experience with the underpinning mechanics of this thread, as a developer and BTL Landlord of 20 years, has spanned the last 5 years with LPA Receivers, corrupt judicial system and blatant criminal activity by the Bank and Receivers. The whole process is criminal by design as written by Tim Madden. 20 years and your portfolio valued at £5 million. Bet you weren't complaining as you added more and more property, to be ever richer as a "saver". £500K/£1m of unleveraged property not good enough for you? Oh £5m that was all yours, with the expertise of forever more buying and debt, and magical forever HPI. Then all the conspiracy that money/debt isn't real, when their once total bragging, Gods-of-Property over-leveraged positions unwind, and their assets split up and sold off at lower prices to other participants instead of one greedy hoarder/property-tycoons. Landlords just love to reap where they never sowed, and when they get it wrong, it's a conspiracy. http://www.property1...rmission/64516/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@contradevian Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Slightly OT but threads like this show what a bunch of muppets BTL landlords are. Tenant signs a 'Deed of Surrender' and refuses to move out. Landlord is lost and so are the experts. Thinks tenant might be an 'illegal squatter!' http://www.property118.com/deed-of-surrender-landlord-tenant/63860/ The sooner we are rid of the BTL infestation the better. Shouldn't be allowed to tie shoe laces let alone run property empires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little fish Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Amen to that. Calling back to my earlier incorrect suggestion that a mortgage wasn't an overdraft, I stand corrected. A BTL mortgage appears to be an overdraft. The other side of this coin is that the failure of the banks to call in all the BTL mortgages where they have a Power of Sale and have been stitched by the 0.5% policy rate is suggestive that the whole UK property market is nothing but a massive extend and pretend play by the banks. Yes, they could close out these shitty loans but as nobody has the earnings to step into the breach it would simply set off a fall in house prices. All just speculation on my part. Alternative analyses welcome. I think that sums it up nicely. It is no coincidence that all the contracts hold the same powers, clauses. And no coincidence that all the lenders act or don't act in similar fashion. It is just a game that they don't want to end. Wish somebody or something would end it for them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little fish Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Thanks for that info on latest position, okaycuckoo, re barristers. 20 years and your portfolio valued at £5 million. Bet you weren't complaining as you added more and more property, to be ever richer as a "saver". £500K/£1m of unleveraged property not good enough for you? Oh £5m that was all yours, with the expertise of forever more buying and debt, and magical forever HPI. Then all the conspiracy that money/debt isn't real, when their once total bragging, Gods-of-Property over-leveraged positions unwind, and their assets split up and sold off at lower prices to other participants instead of one greedy hoarder/property-tycoons. Landlords just love to reap where they never sowed, and when they get it wrong, it's a conspiracy. http://www.property1...rmission/64516/ He mentions that he goes from an income of 100K per month to nothing. If there is any truth in that at all why was he still leveraged? Silly me I keep forgetting. Wealth for BTL'ers is about how much debt you have. I love that site Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Yes, they could close out these shitty loans but as nobody has the earnings to step into the breach it would simply set off a fall in house prices. All just speculation on my part. Alternative analyses welcome. The answere to that may well be the the reason for HTB2 and when you consider UKAR`s sister company UKAR corprate service http://www.ukar.co.uk/ are the company in charge of HTB 2 , 2+2 looks like it makes four Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bland Unsight Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 Wish somebody or something would end it for them... Amen to that, but US 10 year still meandering between 2.50 and 3.00 as it has been since last June suggests that nothing like that is in the offing presently, but it has to come, sooner or later, one way or another. Meanwhile back in Blighty, do falling real incomes for many median earners show that it's here already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 He mentions that he goes from an income of 100K per month to nothing. If there is any truth in that at all why was he still leveraged? Silly me I keep forgetting. Wealth for BTL'ers is about how much debt you have. I love that site Read that. The poster sounds nuts. Financial buzzword bingo. Elaborate mix of conspiracy and paranoi to try and justify why his dumb, over leveraged scheme fell to bits. Its the illuminati that did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 He mentions that he goes from an income of 100K per month to nothing. If there is any truth in that at all why was he still leveraged? Silly me I keep forgetting. Wealth for BTL'ers is about how much debt you have. I love that site Income, or rent revenues - pre mortgage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomandlu Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Income, or rent revenues - pre mortgage? Cash-flow, innit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Yes and no. They need a reason but they can basically make up a reason. Genius, sorry you can't ask for the money you need a reason. Ah the reason is I need the money back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Read that. The poster sounds nuts. Financial buzzword bingo. Elaborate mix of conspiracy and paranoi to try and justify why his dumb, over leveraged scheme fell to bits. Its the illuminati that did it. people with serious debt issues for a period of time start to lose the ability to think straight..I know from personal experience...it is a kind of insanity..Bankruptcy is the best possible treatment, sort of like an almost free bailout.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knimbies who say No Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Building a business which is entirely dependent on increasingly favourable credit conditions in perpetuity is going to hit the skids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Building a business which is entirely dependent on increasingly favourable credit conditions in perpetuity is going to hit the skids. the very definition of a zombie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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