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SarahBell

Childcare Dearer Than Mortgages

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http://www.bbc.co.uk...cation-26373725

Options:

Make childcare cheaper by giving more tax credits

Make childcare dearer by giving more tax credits

Make mortgages more expensive.

Make the mortgages of childcare providers cheaper.

Don't have a mortgage and look after your own kids.

There's a hole in my bucket ... where and how do I live whilst looking after my own kids (if I had any)

How did most of us do this only a few short decades ago ...

2 up 2 down, Mrs at home with the little darlings, hubby out in his secure job with holiday pay, sick pay, pension.

Yeh I know a lot of us were struggling then and life was far from rosie but now it is just madness...wall to wall madness ...

And then before some of us start, there is the £50,000 + of student debt!

This really isn't sustainable is it...none of it...

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There's a hole in my bucket ... where and how do I live whilst looking after my own kids (if I had any)

How did most of us do this only a few short decades ago ...

2 up 2 down, Mrs at home with the little darlings, hubby out in his secure job with holiday pay, sick pay, pension.

Yeh I know a lot of us were struggling then and life was far from rosie but now it is just madness...wall to wall madness ...

And then before some of us start, there is the £50,000 + of student debt!

This really isn't sustainable is it...none of it...

I take quiet comfort in the fact that one day it will all come tumbling down.

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I take quiet comfort in the fact that one day it will all come tumbling down.

I wonder though which political party CAN pick up the pieces, I for one do not want the whole thing to topple only to be built again within the old structures/systems.

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I wonder though which political party CAN pick up the pieces, I for one do not want the whole thing to topple only to be built again within the old structures/systems.

It depends how old.

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If house prices were at sensible levels women would be able to stay at home and look after their children.

That demonstrates the first rule of Government....problems caused by Government need to be fixed...with more Government.

Im going to a meeting Thursday with a speech by a motivational speaker...She is going to tell us that for those that fail, they are to view that failure as a lesson learned, pick themselves up and go on with the new knowledge.

I realised on reading this, that this is the EXACT problem with the institutions in Government...they fail at a task, but it is PROFESSIONAL behaviour to dust yourself down, and learn from the mistake ( Not stop it) and you are entitled to trumpet your failure as a mistake learned and NOW you are in a perfect position to correct the action with the following scheme A B or C.

It is the basis of ENTITLEMENT amongst these PROFESSIONALS....it means there is no price to pay for failure....justified by the attitude of the PROFESSIONAL.

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That demonstrates the first rule of Government....problems caused by Government need to be fixed...with more Government.

Im going to a meeting Thursday with a speech by a motivational speaker...She is going to tell us that for those that fail, they are to view that failure as a lesson learned, pick themselves up and go on with the new knowledge.

I realised on reading this, that this is the EXACT problem with the institutions in Government...they fail at a task, but it is PROFESSIONAL behaviour to dust yourself down, and learn from the mistake ( Not stop it) and you are entitled to trumpet your failure as a mistake learned and NOW you are in a perfect position to correct the action with the following scheme A B or C.

It is the basis of ENTITLEMENT amongst these PROFESSIONALS....it means there is no price to pay for failure....justified by the attitude of the PROFESSIONAL.

I couldn't agree more.

There is a school of thought, particularly prevalent in the USA, that you should have a few failed business attempts, to learn the ropes, before you're ready to run a successful business.

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I couldn't agree more.

There is a school of thought, particularly prevalent in the USA, that you should have a few failed business attempts, to learn the ropes, before you're ready to run a successful business.

I dont think a person should be villified for a failure...god knows, Ive had them...but I paid the price...It seems to me that where there is no price to pay, there is little learned.

Government doesnt seem to stop its failures...it seems to patch them up and carry on.

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Many parents in Britain are now paying more for childcare in a year than they pay for their mortgages, research suggests.

The Family and Childcare Trust's annual report says average fees for one child in part-time nursery and another in an after-school club are £7,549 per year.

The average annual UK mortgage costs an estimated £7,207 last year.

What a misleading slant on the statistics. Statement one suggests a paired statistics comparison between mortgage costs and childcare costs for the same family, but the mortgage cost is averaged over the whole market (many boomers with small mortgages).

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Not really. Most men with a half decent job could support their family and pay the mortgage in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

I would argue that two people working enabled more to be paid (extracted) for houses - clearly someone is better off, although not the people who thought they would be.

So I'd still say, a bit of a circular argument

Edited by LiveinHope

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What a misleading slant on the statistics. Statement one suggests a paired statistics comparison between mortgage costs and childcare costs for the same family, but the mortgage cost is averaged over the whole market (many boomers with small mortgages).

The quoted average mortgage I heard on the radio this morning was £7.5k,

which, for a split second, made me think I should consider buying -

until I gave the underlying statistics some thought :lol:

Edited by LiveinHope

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That demonstrates the first rule of Government....problems caused by Government need to be fixed...with more Government.

Im going to a meeting Thursday with a speech by a motivational speaker...She is going to tell us that for those that fail, they are to view that failure as a lesson learned, pick themselves up and go on with the new knowledge.

I realised on reading this, that this is the EXACT problem with the institutions in Government...they fail at a task, but it is PROFESSIONAL behaviour to dust yourself down, and learn from the mistake ( Not stop it) and you are entitled to trumpet your failure as a mistake learned and NOW you are in a perfect position to correct the action with the following scheme A B or C.

It is the basis of ENTITLEMENT amongst these PROFESSIONALS....it means there is no price to pay for failure....justified by the attitude of the PROFESSIONAL.

I guess first of all someone has to recognize what FAILURE looks like.

What we are presently witnessing looks like FAILURE to many of us, but looks like massive success to some, the kind of success that bankers get paid HUGE bonuses for, and people sell a one bed box for half a million pounds. Failure, success, depends who is looking /defining. If house prices fell 20% or more, people would say "what a failure" but many would leap up and down at the success!

So I wonder if we could do with a little less "professional behaviour", if we could do with a little less thinking we know how and then thinking we know how, as you say THROWING more government, more organization (based perhaps upon wrong principles for the size of the problem).

My guess is that the system is toppling because it has pretty much had its day. This could be a success!

What systems start to replace the toppling systems IS what interests me.

Systems whereby a whole lot of wealth is held by the few, are not, perhaps not surprisingly, the kind of systems I would like to see being re-created

I would like to start to witness a LOT more people getting a LOT more interested in what kind of people, organizations, enterprises etc we would ALL like to see starting to represent us, but perhaps the day of passing organization, rulership etc over to the EXPERTS the TECHNOCRATS has had its day, perhaps we ALL need to start to get a whole lot more organized ourselves in order to start to wholly govern our futures.

My guess is the 99% could do a better job ...

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I would argue that two people working enabled more to be paid (extracted) for houses - clearly someone is better off, although not the people who thought they would be.

Yep.

Yet the headline suggests housing costs have actually fallen - the fact something else costs more gives us a hard limit: namely that working families are spending less than half their income on housing! Not of course all working families, but enough of them to show up as an Issue worthy of meeja attention.

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Yep.

Yet the headline suggests housing costs have actually fallen - the fact something else costs more gives us a hard limit: namely that working families are spending less than half their income on housing! Not of course all working families, but enough of them to show up as an Issue worthy of meeja attention.

Money got the better of everybody, rather than holding onto the second income, people engaged in bidding wars for houses - while a certain sector rubbed their hands in glee at what was 'coming their way' and joined the party - you want to pay more for your house / can't afford a house - here's some help.

Edited by LiveinHope

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The quoted average mortgage I heard on the radio this morning was £7.5k,

which, for a split second, made me think I should consider buying -

until I gave the underlying statistics some thought :lol:

Wasn't that how much was paid a year?

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Just women? I'd happily stay at home.

Given Bruce's passion for UKIP I thought they might hire him as a spokesperson

(I assumed that while making a point he was also being provocative)

But to your point - hear, hear

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What a misleading slant on the statistics. Statement one suggests a paired statistics comparison between mortgage costs and childcare costs for the same family, but the mortgage cost is averaged over the whole market (many boomers with small mortgages).

Indeed.

The report quoted can be downloaded from this page:

http://www.familyandchildcaretrust.org/childcare-costs-surveys

As Quicken says, pretty poor use of stats regarding childcare vs mortgage costs. The quoted mortgage costs are stated as being from the Living Costs and Food survey (ONS). The Family and childcare trust report talks about them as being the average mortgage cost for an average family home in one place and as a general average mortgage cost in others.

Can't find the quoted mortgage cost on the ONS site (it's a warren though, I'm not saying it is not there!), the only figure I can see which is close is the Housing Expenditure

part of the Family Spending 2013 survey, which quotes 'housing' costs of £139/week, broadly similar to the quoted mortgage annual spend but crucially is not a measure of mortgage payments, including a concoction of rents (net of benefits), water rates, maintenance and other things.

In fact mortgage payments are quoted at £45.80 per week instead, on the same page 4:

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_335332.pdf

I can't comment on why one was used and not the other(especially since the ONS mortgage costs would make the difference with childcare even more stark) but it seems quite possible I've not found the data they are using (not helped by no entry to the relevant data release in the bibliography of the report).

Pretty clear which way the report is blowing though, in line with Quicken's posted pdf from Doncaster council a month or two ago, a selected sentence from p22 of the report linked at the top:

We need a childcare system that gives children the best start in life and that enables parents to remain in work.

and from the lady quoted in the BBC article:

I think working's really important; it's important to me as an individual that I go to work. It's important that the children see both their parents working and we want the best start in life for our children.

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Not really. Most men with a half decent job could support their family and pay the mortgage in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

My dad left school at 14, worked as a foreman in sheet metal fabrication, on which wage was able to afford a 3 bed semi in a reasonable area of Leicester, plus support wife+ 2 kids. House cost £6k in 1973.. (About £65k allowing for inflation, current price tag would be c. 150-170k).

Assuming a wage of £30k now (probably on the high side for the job..) the mortgage alone would take up over half of take-home pay, doubt there would be anything left after bills. Not a chance of doing the same now.

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My mortgage is £625 PCM and my childcare costs are £1635 PCM (twins, full time).

It's still worth us both working for several reasons:

1) the boys love nursery.

2) we're still a good £700 a month better off than if one of us stayed home with the boys.

3) risk management in terms of keeping jobs. If one of us loses a job it doesn't matter that much. If only one of us is working and then loses the job it matters a lot.

If it was up to me I would allow all childcare costs to be paid for out of pre-tax income.

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