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Uk Risks Scottish Backlash With Arrogance Over Independence - Salmon

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http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/17/uk-scotland-independence-salmond-idUKBREA1G0GT20140217

Scottish leader Alex Salmond warned on Monday that British politicians risk provoking a backlash in Scotland by running a negative campaign against independence and refusing to let Scots keep the pound if they vote to go it alone.

Salmond is fighting a closely choreographed attempt by London to scupper Scotland's September 18 vote for independence by undermining his central economic case that Scotland could be a prosperous, independent nation.

Salmond accused Westminster of launching a "diplomatic offensive" against independence and of trying to "dictate from on high" after the three main UK parties joined forces to rule out a currency union with an independent Scotland.

"It is a sign of how out-of-touch and arrogant the Westminster establishment has become," Salmond told business leaders in Aberdeen, adding that it was to the benefit of both sides of the border to have a shared currency.

"No one doubts that Scotland can be a successful, independent country ... the issue is not whether we could be independent, but if we should be independent."

Doesn't he want independence then? Surely this is a sure fire way to get the yes vote he wants unless he doesn't actually want to win the vote.

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Doesn't he want independence then? Surely this is a sure fire way to get the yes vote he wants unless he doesn't actually want to win the vote.

It would appear that he doesn't, or that he's utterly delusional about what independence means. I suspect that he isn't but is hoping that most of the voters are stupid enough to believe him. What a wonderful way to run a campaign, work on the assumption that your supporters are morons, but I suppose that's typical of any politician.

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Doesn't he want independence then? Surely this is a sure fire way to get the yes vote he wants unless he doesn't actually want to win the vote.

He probably thinks it'll only happen if the English are so pi$$ed off with the Scots that they either kick them out, or they make the Scots feel so unwelcome that Salmond will win his vote.

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Doesn't he want independence then? Surely this is a sure fire way to get the yes vote he wants unless he doesn't actually want to win the vote.

Hmmm. Apparently if the SNP declares that they are going to have a currency union with the country that they've just told to f-off that's fine and we should all accept it, but if we dare to disagree then that's high-handed arrogance.

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Hmmm. Apparently if the SNP declares that they are going to have a currency union with the country that they've just told to f-off that's fine and we should all accept it, but if we dare to disagree then that's high-handed arrogance.

Does he think that though, or is he playing to his audience who may actually feel that way?

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Doesn't he want independence then? Surely this is a sure fire way to get the yes vote he wants unless he doesn't actually want to win the vote.

It rather sours the whole debate.

If there's a yes vote, the bad feeling will just make the breakup harder. But if there's a no vote, it leaves Scots feeling thoroughly bullied. Blair broke the constitution; his successors are grinding the broken shards under their heel.

Having said that, on the currency issue, the argument for sharing the pound looks exactly the same as the argument for sharing the Euro. Either could be a Good Thing if only we could put a stop to bailouts and race-to-the-bottom borrowing.

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Hmmm. Apparently if the SNP declares that they are going to have a currency union with the country that they've just told to f-off that's fine and we should all accept it, but if we dare to disagree then that's high-handed arrogance.

Indeed, they should get their own 100% independent private central bank...we love ours....or maybe we could give the ours....no theres a thought.

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http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/17/uk-scotland-independence-salmond-idUKBREA1G0GT20140217

Doesn't he want independence then? Surely this is a sure fire way to get the yes vote he wants unless he doesn't actually want to win the vote.

I think he knows he has ******ed this one up big time.

Basically he didn't answer any of the tough questions and glossed over the problems. Then when issues rear up it's "oh, we're being bullied". He has no viable response to any of these issues.

I think that deep down if you gave him the chance to back out of this and instead postpone to a new vote 2-3 years down the line so that the SNP could get its house in order over these proposals then he would do it. But of course that option isn't available.

Like Clegg on PR, once this vote is taken then there will not be another opportunity for Scots to vote on the matter for another generation at least, so he has screwed up big time.

Personally I think the Scots deserve better than this, which is being shown up for what it really is, an ill thought out vanity project. My guess is that it will only become more farcical as the referendum approaches and more unresolvable issues that have been conveniently glossed over come to light.

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Indeed, they should get their own 100% independent private central bank...we love ours....or maybe we could give the ours....no theres a thought.

This is what confuses me in all this - you get asked do you want independence to which you retort 'Why, yes, yes I do.'. Then you get told that with that 'independence' comes the great steaming shitpile that is the BoE - 'Er, sorry, I've left the beans on the hob, can you call back tomorrow!'

What's more when you read about it in the MSM, all top comments appear to be defending our institution as if it's a shining beacon of righteousness and not the morally bankrupt corrupt ******ed up VI unit it is!

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I like his arrogance in assuming that the rest of the UK should be forced to share a currency with Scotland without any say in the matter. Bizarre and delusional. Personally I think Scotland should have its own currency. With all the talent, oil and whisky he's always banging on about what is there to fear. Currencies are ultimately valued on the capacity of the people in the nation state which produces it.

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To want independence but want to keep the pound and join the EU is bonkers.

It's a bit like being an adolescent who wants to do whatever they want but not be responsible for themselves.

Vote yes, create a currency, create a solid constitution, sign agreements with the EU, they won't say no to that whatever they say about accession. Get on with it!

I'll be cheering you from a long way south of the wall, I doubt if I would be the only one.

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To want independence but want to keep the pound and join the EU is bonkers.

It's a bit like being an adolescent who wants to do whatever they want but not be responsible for themselves.

I agree, and I am a Yes voter. I would much prefer for us to have our own currency and central bank. If it was in our intererest we could peg it against the GBP (much like Ireland did for many years with the Punt). I realise that there are many small-ish nations with their own currency (e.g. Denmark, Sweden, Norway, NZ) and I see no reason we couldn't do the same.

However, the reason why Salmond isn't promoting this viewpoint is that he knows full well most Scots aren't like me. The polling constantly reveals that there are around a third Scots who will vote Yes, another third who will vote No, and the final third are the undecideds that he must woo into voting Yes.

Poll after poll shows that the undecideds will vote No if they think independence is too risky. We have to assume that the Yes campaign's polling shows that these undecideds are much more likely to vote Yes if they are told we will still have the £ after independence. Which is why Salmond is saying it.

So as unpalatable as it sounds he isn't saying we will keep using the £ because that is the best argument economically, it is because he knows it is the only argument he can make if he wants to win the referendum.

The noble thing would be to spend a lot of time educating the Scottish people into why creating our own currency and central bank would be the right thing to do in the long term, but the No campaign would savage this argument with FUD and the vote would be lost. Unfortunately that's democracy for ya.

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I agree, and I am a Yes voter. I would much prefer for us to have our own currency and central bank. If it was in our intererest we could peg it against the GBP (much like Ireland did for many years with the Punt). I realise that there are many small-ish nations with their own currency (e.g. Denmark, Sweden, Norway, NZ) and I see no reason we couldn't do the same.

However, the reason why Salmond isn't promoting this viewpoint is that he knows full well most Scots aren't like me. The polling constantly reveals that there are around a third Scots who will vote Yes, another third who will vote No, and the final third are the undecideds that he must woo into voting Yes.

Poll after poll shows that the undecideds will vote No if they think independence is too risky. We have to assume that the Yes campaign's polling shows that these undecideds are much more likely to vote Yes if they are told we will still have the £ after independence. Which is why Salmond is saying it.

So as unpalatable as it sounds he isn't saying we will keep using the £ because that is the best argument economically, it is because he knows it is the only argument he can make if he wants to win the referendum.

The noble thing would be to spend a lot of time educating the Scottish people into why creating our own currency and central bank would be the right thing to do in the long term, but the No campaign would savage this argument with FUD and the vote would be lost. Unfortunately that's democracy for ya.

Agree...If a country does riot have financial independence how is it independent?....its a true test...

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It would appear that he doesn't, or that he's utterly delusional about what independence means. I suspect that he isn't but is hoping that most of the voters are stupid enough to believe him. What a wonderful way to run a campaign, work on the assumption that your supporters are morons, but I suppose that's typical of any politician.

Whatever. Every Scot knows what independence means. No more London rule.

Take it at that, you ignorant tw*t.

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Whatever. Every Scot knows what independence means. No more London rule.

Take it at that, you ignorant tw*t.

Someone should tell Salmond then. As his version of Independence doesn't mean that at all . . .

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Doesn't he want independence then?

Of course most nationalist politicos don't. Demanding independence is a nice little earner, but actual, real independence would require them to do something and take responsibility for it.

Hence they're already getting set up for 'it's all Thatcher^H^H^H^HCameron's fault!' in the unlikely event that they do win.

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So Salmon wants independence!... but he still wants to keep sitting on the pound's coat tails....

ummmm ok :lol:

Incidentally, what could all this mean for the "U.K." and "Great Britain" plus the British flag? Could they become redundant then? I actually hope so, because I think England et al could do with a complete fresh start. And that doesn't mean a new flag with Islamic symbols on it either.

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I agree, and I am a Yes voter. I would much prefer for us to have our own currency and central bank. If it was in our intererest we could peg it against the GBP (much like Ireland did for many years with the Punt). I realise that there are many small-ish nations with their own currency (e.g. Denmark, Sweden, Norway, NZ) and I see no reason we couldn't do the same.

Because the ratio of banking assets to GDP in Scotland would be 1200% -- i.e. 6 times higher than Switzerland or twice what it was in Iceland in 2007.

A banking industry requires a credible lender of last resort, and an independent Scotland wouldn't be able to provide that on a sufficient scale for the current size of the financial services industry. Scotland can have its own currency and central bank, but that won't prevent a huge proportion of the financial services industry moving out of country. A reduced banking industry would hardly be the end of the world, but the SNP's financial projections based on the assumption of a currency union that's never going to happen are completely wrong and misleading.

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Because the ratio of banking assets to GDP in Scotland would be 1200% -- i.e. 6 times higher than Switzerland or twice what it was in Iceland in 2007.

A banking industry requires a credible lender of last resort, and an independent Scotland wouldn't be able to provide that on a sufficient scale for the current size of the financial services industry. Scotland can have its own currency and central bank, but that won't prevent a huge proportion of the financial services industry moving out of country. A reduced banking industry would hardly be the end of the world, but the SNP's financial projections based on the assumption of a currency union that's never going to happen are completely wrong and misleading.

Would that be the Iceland that no one visits or trades with anymore?

The Scots should stick the pounds and the bankers.

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...A banking industry requires a credible lender of last resort...

Really, can you explain more? What do you mean by a lender of last resort, who would it be, where does it get the money it lends from, and what happens if there isn't one?

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Really, can you explain more? What do you mean by a lender of last resort, who would it be, where does it get the money it lends from, and what happens if there isn't one?

:)

Don't ask difficult questions.

I'll try and answer - a lender of last resort is a money-magician who presides over the banking system and pretends to be very stern and serious but actually is just there to print some money for the banking system concerned if it looks like it might go bust (which it inevitably will as rules to prevent this are not enforced).

If there isn't one, well I guess the banks could just print themselves some more money, but psychologically this might present an issue as it wouldn't be regarded as proper governance.

How did I do?

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Really, can you explain more? What do you mean by a lender of last resort, who would it be, where does it get the money it lends from, and what happens if there isn't one?

I'm not saying that I agree with the current model of central banking, but that's the real world.

In order to bail out the bankers, the people of the United Kingdom have taken a 10% pay cut over the past 7 years. The central bank printed up the cash to hand over to the bankrupt banks, and the resulting inflation eroded the average standard of living by about 10%. That's bad enough, but Alex Salmond's proposal that the UK put itself at risk of doing this again, but for bankers in a foreign country, is utterly bonkers.

Without a lender of last result, the banking industry in Scotland is a non-starter. There just aren't enough people in the country to support it's current size if there was the need for another bailout. The cost of borrowing for any banks located in the country without a lender of last resort would make them non-viable.

(I'm assuming your question was rhetorical. Do people really not understand this after the experience of the past ten years?)

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(I'm assuming your question was rhetorical. Do people really not understand this after the experience of the past ten years?)

Nothing rhetorical about his question. You made some unsupported assertions, he queried them.

Even the argument in your followup post only applies to one of Scotland's financial companies (RBS), and then only subject to some tenuous assumptions. I wouldn't assume any state bailout in future. As it happens, the bailout last time was a bailout of Scottish banks decreed by Scottish politicians. But it was also the party with a long history of bailing out lame ducks at the taxpayers' expense, even when not under Scottish rule.

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The Scottish government has failed to provide evidence it can properly fund pensions under independence, former prime minister Gordon Brown has said.

He said a "Yes" vote in the 18 September referendum would mean losing the "pooling and sharing" of resources which help fund state pensions.

And the Scottish Labour MP said questions over the value of North Sea oil raised further funding concerns.

The Scottish government said Mr Brown had no credibility on the issue.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26243641

This could be the final nail in Salmond's coffin.

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