Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum
interestrateripoff

The Ukraine Chernobyl Thread

Recommended Posts

Kerry currently on the telly in full warmongering mode ... just what is going on here, the Yanks seem determined to bring Europe to the brink of another war.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kerry currently on the telly in full warmongering mode ... just what is going on here, the Yanks seem determined to bring Europe to the brink of another war.

Are you suggesting that we somehow "owe" something to Putin? Like exactly what? It is only Putin's problem that he wants to run his empire for at least 5 terms, not ours ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you suggesting that we somehow "owe" something to Putin? Like exactly what? It is only Putin's problem that he wants to run his empire for at least 5 terms, not ours ...

I didn't mention anything about Putin in my post, you monotonous tw@

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So how exactly can Yanks bring Europe to another war???

The same way that they've provoked conflict and ruin t in the Middle East, South America and Africa.

Spreading dissent and poking their noses in to far flung countries was odious enough .. but now they have to start interfering with countries on the doorstep of Europe. They can feck right off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When the likes of Kerry mentioned "consequences" the BBC just reported the word without taking a breath as if it needed no explanation at all (and there were no explanations) as if everyone would know what they were? (later on there was mention of sanctions) but when the Russian spokesman mentioned "consequences" the BBC reported it with an air of great puzzlement as if it was a strange new (and unexpected) Russian word and then had to invite "experts" in to try to explain what it might mean. They didn't really clarify much.

Just saying.

Edited by billybong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The same way that they've provoked conflict and ruin t in the Middle East, South America and Africa.

Spreading dissent and poking their noses in to far flung countries was odious enough .. but now they have to start interfering with countries on the doorstep of Europe. They can feck right off.

It is a bit of an insult to my friends who protested on the Maidan throughout the winter to say there dissent was sown. I cannot comment on any of these other countries but in this case I will say it one more time. My friends did not want the country to turn into Belaruss. They got off there backsides to say we need change and protested. I support my friends 100% Better to try to change and fail than live your life complaining how you wish things were better.

I do not really support the US but I am behind them now if they offer aid.

It is probably pretty hard from someone sitting here to put themselves in this situation.

Meanwhile one of the Russian ministers was talking about the Ukraine having a political prisoner and they have this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26382331

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem as ever is geography. Ukraine is not in a position to not have a relationship with it's neighbour Russia. It has land borders and millions of people brought up in the Soviet Union, many born in Russia or born to Russians during this period. Ukraine has resources and vital industry (Uranium and Jet Engine plants), it has a route to the West for trade and transit.

The US would not be able to protect them, even if significant armoured land forces still existed in NATO's West Germany, most of these groups fought in Desert Storm and them returned to the states......in 1992/3. to be disbanded or turned into national guard. The rest of the Euro countries are not politically able to fight wars (this was by design after WW2). Even if the will there, I'm not sure the people would follow their leaders "over the top".

9th of May parades in Moscow, will be interesting this year. The Russians call the victory day (over Nazis) and National Spirit will be at an all time high. This has also been the period of year when the Nazi's have been parading in the Baltic states for the last 20 years.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/14/latvia-minister-einars-cilinskis-nazi-memorial-row

To quote the sketch. "Are we supposed to be the baddies?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a bit of an insult to my friends who protested on the Maidan throughout the winter to say there dissent was sown. I cannot comment on any of these other countries but in this case I will say it one more time. My friends did not want the country to turn into Belaruss. They got off there backsides to say we need change and protested. I support my friends 100% Better to try to change and fail than live your life complaining how you wish things were better.

I do not really support the US but I am behind them now if they offer aid.

It is probably pretty hard from someone sitting here to put themselves in this situation.

Meanwhile one of the Russian ministers was talking about the Ukraine having a political prisoner and they have this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26382331

It is even more of an insult to your friends who protested on the Maidan for the side they protested for to have them shot.

20140424_nato.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a bit of an insult to my friends who protested on the Maidan throughout the winter to say there dissent was sown. I cannot comment on any of these other countries but in this case I will say it one more time. My friends did not want the country to turn into Belaruss. They got off there backsides to say we need change and protested. I support my friends 100% Better to try to change and fail than live your life complaining how you wish things were better.

I do not really support the US but I am behind them now if they offer aid.

It is probably pretty hard from someone sitting here to put themselves in this situation.

Meanwhile one of the Russian ministers was talking about the Ukraine having a political prisoner and they have this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26382331

Quite. I don't think the word hypocrisy exists in the Russian language. Russia claim that Ukraine is allegedly holding political prisoners and abusing the rights of 'independence' movements (Cough - Dagestan, Chechnya) has about as much creditability as Saudi Arabia justifying support for Syrian rebels on the basis that Assad is a Dictator :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quite. I don't think the word hypocrisy exists in the Russian language. Russia claim that Ukraine is allegedly holding political prisoners and abusing the rights of 'independence' movements (Cough - Dagestan, Chechnya) has about as much creditability as Saudi Arabia justifying support for Syrian rebels on the basis that Assad is a Dictator :lol:

But hypocrisy is not the issue here is it?

The issue is whether the world gets plunged into a nuclear war because the US and EU keep on pushing the envelope. I don't think Russia is bothered about human rights, any more than the US, with is its track record of support for human-rights-abusing regimes, and long history of fomenting armed conflict, is concerned with human rights.

Russis is bothered about having Ukraine in NATO with the likelihood of anti-Ballistic missiles stationed in Donetsk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But hypocrisy is not the issue here is it?

The issue is whether the world gets plunged into a nuclear war because the US and EU keep on pushing the envelope. I don't think Russia is bothered about human rights, any more than the US, with is its track record of support for human-rights-abusing regimes, and long history of fomenting armed conflict, is concerned with human rights.

Russis is bothered about having Ukraine in NATO with the likelihood of anti-Ballistic missiles stationed in Donetsk.

Given the history of Russia's treatment of the Ukraine is it any wonder that they (well at least a sizeable majority) would want to join Nato & the EU? I have friends in Estonia, Romania and Poland who still remember being puppet states of the USSR. None have any desire to be reincorporated into USSR MkII or become like the Banana Republic of Belarus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given the history of Russia's treatment of the Ukraine is it any wonder that they (well at least a sizeable majority) would want to join Nato & the EU? I have friends in Estonia, Romania and Poland who still remember being puppet states of the USSR. None have any desire to be reincorporated into USSR MkII or become like the Banana Republic of Belarus.

Anecdotes are fine but looking a it objectively, since 1991 the pro-Russia and pro-Ukraine sides in the Ukraine have been evenly balanced at every election, sometimes tilting this way, sometimes tilting that way. It seems to me that the best way to have decided this issue would have been to have waited for next year's presidential election and not to have forced the isssue by a violent coup d'etat.

I don't think that the 50% who want to go west have any right to dictate to the 50% who do not.

Moreover, the last people who are entitled to whinge about pro-Moscow activists who take over buildings in east Ukraine are the pro-Washington activists who illegally took over the government in Kiev.

But the biggest issue of all is whether we go ahead and blow up the entire globe to satisfy the demented egos of some western politicians.

If only Kennedy were back in the White House!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not just Kerry stirring the pot, McCain went on to call Russia: “A gas station run by a mafia that is masquerading as a country.”

KInd of funny coming from a banking/corpoarate kleptocracy mascarading as a democracy.

A plague on all their houses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anecdotes are fine but looking a it objectively, since 1991 the pro-Russia and pro-Ukraine sides in the Ukraine have been evenly balanced at every election, sometimes tilting this way, sometimes tilting that way. It seems to me that the best way to have decided this issue would have been to have waited for next year's presidential election and not to have forced the isssue by a violent coup d'etat.

I don't think that the 50% who want to go west have any right to dictate to the 50% who do not.

Moreover, the last people who are entitled to whinge about pro-Moscow activists who take over buildings in east Ukraine are the pro-Washington activists who illegally took over the government in Kiev.

But the biggest issue of all is whether we go ahead and blow up the entire globe to satisfy the demented egos of some western politicians.

If only Kennedy were back in the White House!

Iread an article (wish I could find the link). What it said was it is a mistake to assume that 'Russian speaker' automatically means support of breaking away and joining Russia. Likewise a vote for a eastern leaning political party doesn't necessarily convey a wish to rejoin the USSR <_<

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Iread an article (wish I could find the link). What it said was it is a mistake to assume that 'Russian speaker' automatically means support of breaking away and joining Russia. Likewise a vote for a eastern leaning political party doesn't necessarily convey a wish to rejoin the USSR <_<

then again, we have Crimea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anecdotes are fine but looking a it objectively, since 1991 the pro-Russia and pro-Ukraine sides in the Ukraine have been evenly balanced at every election, sometimes tilting this way, sometimes tilting that way. It seems to me that the best way to have decided this issue would have been to have waited for next year's presidential election and not to have forced the isssue by a violent coup d'etat.

I don't think that the 50% who want to go west have any right to dictate to the 50% who do not.

Moreover, the last people who are entitled to whinge about pro-Moscow activists who take over buildings in east Ukraine are the pro-Washington activists who illegally took over the government in Kiev.

But the biggest issue of all is whether we go ahead and blow up the entire globe to satisfy the demented egos of some western politicians and Russian politicians.

If only Kennedy were back in the White House!

In the interests of fairness corrected for you. ;)

Personally I think the machismo going on here is as bad on both sides of the fence. However Russia should not be interfering in The Ukraine's right to deal with armed insurrection inside its own borders by labeling any action by Ukrainian Police and Army as 'criminal' and threatening intervention (which i suspect is happening covertly anyway).

From what I can see The Ukraines interim Govt have acted reasonably towards the separatists offering amnesties in return for talks and the laying down of arms. I don't recall Russia showing any such restraint in Chechnya a few years back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Iread an article (wish I could find the link). What it said was it is a mistake to assume that 'Russian speaker' automatically means support of breaking away and joining Russia. Likewise a vote for a eastern leaning political party doesn't necessarily convey a wish to rejoin the USSR <_<

But you didn't answer my question - maybe I didn't pose it explicitly. Why not wait for next year's election?

Also, did the $5 billion the US spent on 'faciliating democracy' in Ukraine get spent in an ethnically/politically neutral way?

And what's this about the USSR? Did you not notice that it collapsed and went away in 1991?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the interests of fairness corrected for you. ;)

Personally I think the machismo going on here is as bad on both sides of the fence. However Russia should not be interfering in The Ukraine's right to deal with armed insurrection inside its own borders by labeling any action by Ukrainian Police and Army as 'criminal' and threatening intervention (which i suspect is happening covertly anyway).

From what I can see The Ukraines interim Govt have acted reasonably towards the separatists offering amnesties in return for talks and the laying down of arms. I don't recall Russia showing any such restraint in Chechnya a few years back.

But the interim government have no legitimacy! How can you justify a violent overhrow intsead of waiting for next year's elections? Your whole argument just falls to pieces on this one issue. Who cares about concessions from such people, people who have no right to offer punishments or rewards?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But Crimea always had an overwhelmingly Russian population particularly following the Russians mass deportation of the Crimean Tatars <_<

And east Ukraine too, particularly since the administrative transfer of these lands by diktat in 1964. <_<<_<

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • 355 The Prime Minister stated that there were three Brexit options available to the UK:

    1. 1. Which of the Prime Minister's options would you choose?


      • Leave with the negotiated deal
      • Remain
      • Leave with no deal



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.