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Patfig

State Vs Fee Paying Schools

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So will you be able to take your kids out on holiday as you see fit as you can in a private school?

Maybe even eat cheddars without being expelled

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So will you be able to take your kids out on holiday as you see fit as you can in a private school?

Maybe even eat cheddars without being expelled

Actually, most private schools are pretty strict about it too although the terms are usually shorter which means you can do holidays during less busy - and therefore cheaper - periods. My son went to a state school in the UK for several years followed by a couple of years at a private school and the rules were basically the same - i.e. 1 or 2 days ok if you could make a reasonable case, 1 week forget it.

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The only way to make state schools as successful as public schools is:

i) give them the ability to expel troublesome pupils/parents. You'd need a whole extra 'borstal' style system for uneducatable numpties

ii) give them the ability to hold kids back each year who didn't have english as a first language, just teaching them english

iii) allow headmasters to sack useless teachers

as none of the above will ever happen, Gove is talking out of his ****

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Just introduce fees then. And send poor boys up chimneys.

Not sure that "private" is any better.

Mate of mine won the school Physics Prize, for getting a "D" at A level, at his minor boarding school!

Another bloke I knew failed his degree, and got a job teaching, at a private school.

Mr Gove does seem very out of touch with reality.

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The only way to make state schools as successful as public schools is:

i) give them the ability to expel troublesome pupils/parents. You'd need a whole extra 'borstal' style system for uneducatable numpties

ii) give them the ability to hold kids back each year who didn't have english as a first language, just teaching them english

iii) allow headmasters to sack useless teachers

as none of the above will ever happen, Gove is talking out of his ****

I think there is much to be said in what you say.....also holding back pupils that are not ready to go up a year who may need more time to reach a certain level in reading, writing and maths. ;)

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Private education is selective, only the successful can use it, while State education is the equivalent of the Council Estate. Private Schools will therefore always beat State Schools.

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Step 1: Cut direct government funding to state schools while simultaneously "allowing" them to charge fees up to a specific cap.

Step 2: Extend the Student Loan system so that a child takes their first loan to pay their fees at age 5.

Edit: Step 3: tighten the rules that make it a criminal offense not to attend school, to mop up any pinkos who object to taking out the loans.

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Fee paying schools will always do better because they have "better" students. State schools have to take all the riff raff and all abilities. It might be those seen as lesser able to could do better with a curriculum suited to their needs but it's a one size fits all, if you don't fit it's tough.

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Private education is selective, only the successful can use it, while State education is the equivalent of the Council Estate. Private Schools will therefore always beat State Schools.

There are mediocre private schools too. Personally I would prefer a good state school to a mediocre private one. But the fact is that good state schools are also selective in a sense nowadays, in that house prices anywhere near a good one will be that much more. We have some excellent state schools here (Kingston) including two grammars and some very good primaries. And we have house prices to match - many people move here because of the schools.

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There are mediocre private schools too. Personally I would prefer a good state school to a mediocre private one. But the fact is that good state schools are also selective in a sense nowadays, in that house prices anywhere near a good one will be that much more. We have some excellent state schools here (Kingston) including two grammars and some very good primaries. And we have house prices to match - many people move here because of the schools.

You can say the same for Barnet....but if you can't get your child into the better school up the road because of demand the second choice is a completely different kettle of fish.....how can our schools be so different in the quality of education, ethos, discipline and teaching? :unsure:

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There are mediocre private schools too. Personally I would prefer a good state school to a mediocre private one. But the fact is that good state schools are also selective in a sense nowadays, in that house prices anywhere near a good one will be that much more. We have some excellent state schools here (Kingston) including two grammars and some very good primaries. And we have house prices to match - many people move here because of the schools.

Yes, it's a classic positive feedback system. Certain schools or areas get a good reputation, so people who care about their kids' eduction move there, thus pushing up the house prices, thus driving away those who aren't interesting in schooling. These schools also attract good teachers because they're generally pleasant places to work.

It's the same in my area, a relatively posh part of the Midlands. The schools are all very good, except for one primary school and one secondary school. The only kids who apply for those schools are the ones whose parents don't particularly care about their eduction, which makes it almost impossible for those schools to make much headway. The house prices are also noticeably lower near those schools.

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The key difference between a successful and unsuccessful school in my experience is that in the successful schools all the parents want their kids to be there. Successful schools, whether they charge a fee or not, select the parents not the pupil.

Charging a fee helps because most folk value stuff more if they pay for it, rather than if they get it for 'free'.

As for Gove, I suspect what he means is making state schools more like private schools in the same way NHS PFI hospitals have become more like private hospitals. I'm sure there are numerous ways in which schools can be securitised to the benefit of the shady f***kers who grease the political parties.

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Not sure that "private" is any better.

+1 private schools may sometimes achieve higher academic results, but good academic results can be next to useless in preparing pupils for life and work after school. More often than not, some form of local community, life at home, some decent parenting and a sufficient education will produce more rounded children better prepared for adult life.

This documentary gave an insight in to some of the pros and cons of independent schooling. Fairly unbiased and a +1 for the BBC for a change, from what I can remember of it.

Private education is selective

Selective and competitive, which are generally excellent qualities. But what's the point in teaching an individual to a get good results at the highest academic level if their individual situation and access to the broader jobs market at that time suggests that they would have better prospects getting into work as early as possible.

Private schools work for those with the connections to find work in the higher paying end of the professions. Expensive and exclusive does not mean better. Concentrate on teaching good communication and comprehension skills at a young age and let people find their own specialisations later in life. Appealing to prejudices like this achieves little.

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Guest eight

It's the same in my area, a relatively posh part of the Midlands.

Inside toilets and everything?

We sent our daughter to a village school for the same reasons. It means two car journeys a day - you could say that's our "fees". My other half used to work in the children's centre attached to our nearest school and was told explicitly by the then head to never, ever consider sending our child there.

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I went to both private and a state grammar. I had no say in the matter, although I suppose I could have spoiled my 12+ exam paper.

I'd say that private selects children of parents who care about education and can afford to pay.

The state gets the children of those who care but can't afford to pay, and the children of those who couldn't care.

Controversially, Id say that grammar and comprehensive sorted the latter two groups.

It could be argued that the above are both fair and unfair on the children.

Ultimately, the fate of most children individually is determined their parents and their home environment.

Any school can only work with what it gets and I take my hat off to teachers in some circumstances who do a fantastic job.

To try to devise an education system to correct for poor parenting at the expense of children with good parenting would be unfair on the latter - how do you bring the underprivileged 'up' is the question when state a education budget is limited.

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The key difference between a successful and unsuccessful school in my experience is that in the successful schools all the parents want their kids to be there. Successful schools, whether they charge a fee or not, select the parents not the pupil.

Charging a fee helps because most folk value stuff more if they pay for it, rather than if they get it for 'free'.

As for Gove, I suspect what he means is making state schools more like private schools in the same way NHS PFI hospitals have become more like private hospitals. I'm sure there are numerous ways in which schools can be securitised to the benefit of the shady f***kers who grease the political parties.

Yep this is my take too re the PFI situation

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Ultimately, the fate of most children individually is determined their parents and their home environment.

I haven't got the research to hand but my understanding is that the single greatest factor in determining the quality of an 'average' child's literacy is not the type or quality of school they go to but how much printed material is simply lying around at home.

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I haven't got the research to hand but my understanding is that the single greatest factor in determining the quality of an 'average' child's literacy is not the type or quality of school they go to but how much printed material is simply lying around at home.

There is all the printed material you are ever likely to need....on tinternet. ;)

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I haven't got the research to hand but my understanding is that the single greatest factor in determining the quality of an 'average' child's literacy is not the type or quality of school they go to but how much printed material is simply lying around at home.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100520213116.htm

For years, educators have thought the strongest predictor of attaining high levels of education was having parents who were highly educated. But, strikingly, this massive study showed that the difference between being raised in a bookless home compared to being raised in a home with a 500-book library has as great an effect on the level of education a child will attain as having parents who are barely literate (3 years of education) compared to having parents who have a university education (15 or 16 years of education). Both factors, having a 500-book library or having university-educated parents, propel a child 3.2 years further in education, on average.

Although, sadly, they then go on to say: "The results of this study indicate that getting some books into their homes is an inexpensive way that we can help these children succeed." Because for public policy recommendations, causation and correlation are the exact same thing, even when they clearly aren't.

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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100520213116.htm

Although, sadly, they then go on to say: "The results of this study indicate that getting some books into their homes is an inexpensive way that we can help these children succeed." Because for public policy recommendations, causation and correlation are the exact same thing, even when they clearly aren't.

At least we have booktrust and Miriam Gonzalez.

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There is all the printed material you are ever likely to need....on tinternet. ;)

There's also a lot of other media.

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I haven't got the research to hand but my understanding is that the single greatest factor in determining the quality of an 'average' child's literacy is not the type or quality of school they go to but how much printed material is simply lying around at home.

I learned a lot by reading the Radio Times when I went for a dump.

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.....how can our schools be so different in the quality of education, ethos, discipline and teaching? :unsure:

So much depends on the quality of the parents, and it is not all about money. It is caring about education and expecting kids to do well, plus of course reading to them when they are little, etc.

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So much depends on the quality of the parents, and it is not all about money. It is caring about education and expecting kids to do well, plus of course reading to them when they are little, etc.

Well, we were sh!t poor when I was young! I remember my dad taking myself and my sister to get signed up at the local library! Amazing! I could read books for nothing! And I did!

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