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Renewed Investor

Is It Wise To Be Daft In Modern Society?

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If this system is set up to reward the irresponsible and the naive, what is the point in acting responsible and thinking for yourself?

The question came up in my mind this morning as I logged onto facebook for the first time since Xmas. I see plenty of people who are heavily in debt, jumping into HTB, having kids with no way to pay for them etc... And yet they all seem quite happy. Nobody has shown up to take their things, the State will pick up the tab when they can't and they seem to be completely carefree for the most part. Now i know FB is not a true representation of an individual, but I've bumped into or hung out with a lot of them over the past year and they seemed that way in person too.

I would have once looked at these lot as foolish for some of their choices and blind faith in the system, but now I'm not so sure. By knuckling down, saving, investing, living frugally etc, have I been the foolish one? I keep spreadsheets of all my expenses, my projected income etc and plan around my budget. If I can't afford it, I don't buy it/do it. As a result I've kept my budget every time, never went overdrawn or owed anyone anything. I've missed plenty of opportunities though - holidays, nights out in different towns/cities around the UK and many other things.

I've said to myself this stuff can't last, these people will end up deep in the clarts sooner or later, but when? This credit bubble could go on for another couple of decades, maybe longer and yet here I am trying to stay within my means and losing out on what I hear afterwards to have been some pretty fun events/times. And on the topic of housing, yes the HTB scheme is a total con, but it could last a while and whilst i have been saving others have gotten on the bandwagon and kept the bubble alive. Whilst they are paying off something that in the end will be theirs here I am still just paying rent and could be for a long time. Given current inflation and future projected inflation, is debt taken out long term really that relevant anymore for a young person? Wages will catch up eventually, even if done so artificially. Heck, monthly payments on a HTB 5% mortgage in todays money may amount to 40 hours work at McDonalds in 25 years time.

Thoughts on this little rant?

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It`s about a balance of risk. Do you live for the moment or invest for the future?

The feckless will mostly be fine unless there`s some sort of systemic failure. As you say, that could be decades. When that happens someone will probably steal all of your savings anyway.

To be honest it sounds like you could do with relaxing a little bit. Sure, save to secure your future, but live a little on the way.

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I totally hear you buddy

I have always been cautious and lived well within my means - as a consequence I am trapped in a very basic house with no chance of ever getting anything better even though I earn well above average salary

The x-factor watching, white Audi driving sheeple are laughing all the way to the bank

Bitter? - yes, very.

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Thoughts on this little rant?

The short answer is, yes, but what are you going to do about it?

If you're a thoughtful, prudent person it's kind of difficult to break character and behave like a spunker.

What does twist the knife somewhat is the thought that when there is a systemic reset, as I believe is inevitable, some character will turn up declare it was all your fault for not doing your bit to keep the spunkfest going and steal from you.

Yet, even if you appreciate all that, it's still difficult to join the spunkers if you're not a spunker at heart.

Though if you're being prudent to a point where it has become an end in itself you might want to try tweaking it a little bit. Witnessing some airhead relatives spunk their way through an inheritance can help a lot in that regard. If you don't spunk it yourself in time that's where it all goes eventually (less the government take).

It might also be an idea to ask yourself if assessing, maybe even living, your own life on the basis of the same priorities and metrics as daft people is the way to go.

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I suppose I am just angry and to some extent jealous. The ups and downs I've went through since leaving school were meant to lead me to a world of financial freedom and happy living. The sleepless nights I had when my first business went bust, the 20 hour shifts i pulled forming my current business, the studying, the planning etc. I could have made more dough and been safer financially had I just knocked a lass up straight out of school and played the system.

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I know what your saying. But there's a line to be drawn - living by spreadsheet and denying yourself occasional daftness is as bad as being a perennial spunker, I think. Talk to an elderly person, who has experienced good and bad times, and they'll tell you that when you're old, you won't remember all those balanced spreadsheets, but you may regret missing the trip to Blackpool that could have put you fifty quid over budget.

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Given current inflation and future projected inflation, is debt taken out long term really that relevant anymore for a young person? Wages will catch up eventually, even if done so artificially.

Yes, the reckless won for 15 years+ but we're at breaking point. Some jitters on stock-markets might help bring in some margin calls on London, or have a few more owners revaluate selling their crazily over-valued assets. US taper. UK owners constantly moaning about cost of living but such little such little inventory on market.

Only need to hit a tipping point where more owners are needing to sell, and accept lower prices, to bring all values down. PIMPs then rushing to downsize before their homes lose more value. It's precarious a market for values at these heights.

Houses are only worth what people are able and willing to pay for them. Doesn't matter how big a growing population all competing for jobs and income, if they can't outbid us when the big slide comes in. HTB2 for now picking up that slack, but at some cost, and so far at negligible volume, and whatever damaging feedback to the economy of allowing that.

There's a big big HPC coming (imo), even at low rates. Great Depression shows you can have big HPC even with low base rates. And so much malinvestment chasing yield recent years going to turn ugly.

Not yet any meaningful inflation for wages, and magic inflation in other stuff not good for house prices at all. Bring on the hard mortgage stress-testing.

I don't see any salary inflation in our future for years to come, and that's the only kind of inflation that boosts house prices. Inflation in everything else (food, energy, medical) just takes away from the money people have to spend on housing.

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I suppose I am just angry and to some extent jealous. The ups and downs I've went through since leaving school were meant to lead me to a world of financial freedom and happy living. The sleepless nights I had when my first business went bust, the 20 hour shifts i pulled forming my current business, the studying, the planning etc. I could have made more dough and been safer financially had I just knocked a lass up straight out of school and played the system.

Then you'd be someone else.

I get the impression you might already appreciate this but thinking along these lines, in my experience, doesn't usually lead to any solutions.

A different way of pitching the thread might be 'How can a thoughtful, prudent person achieve happiness in modern society?'. I wouldn't pretend there are easy answers but getting hung up on the apparent material well-being of airheads can only be corrosive imho.

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If this system is set up to reward the irresponsible and the naive, what is the point in acting responsible and thinking for yourself?

The question came up in my mind this morning as I logged onto facebook for the first time since Xmas. I see plenty of people who are heavily in debt, jumping into HTB, having kids with no way to pay for them etc... And yet they all seem quite happy. Nobody has shown up to take their things, the State will pick up the tab when they can't and they seem to be completely carefree for the most part. Now i know FB is not a true representation of an individual, but I've bumped into or hung out with a lot of them over the past year and they seemed that way in person too.

I would have once looked at these lot as foolish for some of their choices and blind faith in the system, but now I'm not so sure. By knuckling down, saving, investing, living frugally etc, have I been the foolish one? I keep spreadsheets of all my expenses, my projected income etc and plan around my budget. If I can't afford it, I don't buy it/do it. As a result I've kept my budget every time, never went overdrawn or owed anyone anything. I've missed plenty of opportunities though - holidays, nights out in different towns/cities around the UK and many other things.

I've said to myself this stuff can't last, these people will end up deep in the clarts sooner or later, but when? This credit bubble could go on for another couple of decades, maybe longer and yet here I am trying to stay within my means and losing out on what I hear afterwards to have been some pretty fun events/times. And on the topic of housing, yes the HTB scheme is a total con, but it could last a while and whilst i have been saving others have gotten on the bandwagon and kept the bubble alive. Whilst they are paying off something that in the end will be theirs here I am still just paying rent and could be for a long time. Given current inflation and future projected inflation, is debt taken out long term really that relevant anymore for a young person? Wages will catch up eventually, even if done so artificially. Heck, monthly payments on a HTB 5% mortgage in todays money may amount to 40 hours work at McDonalds in 25 years time.

Thoughts on this little rant?

Living like a student (so to speak) for the last fifteen years or so, you really get to value every penny...Nothing wrong with frugal, but if you have the dosh, then go for the odd extravagance...there are a lot of people who earn arsing loads, but live like monks...don't really understand that....if you've worked hard for it, then enjoy the fruits of your labour...The way I see it, is that if you buy a house, pay it off (and manage to make a profit on it) towards the end of your life, all that extra money goes on whether you have an en-suite bathroom with your room in a care home, or whether you shyte out of the window..

I don't really value possessions, all I really care about is having a fairly decent album collection and a moderately nice car. Don't care about a house...tied to some building for 30 years....almost half your life....Seems bonkers if you ask me...You only live your life once (as the old cliche goes), and its all about experiences (and learning from them)...does anyone really care about that trendy ruched sofa you got from ikea (for instance)...

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I know three people who are deeply unhappy about their debts but don't show it to the world and spend money they haven't got to try to keep up a front and make themselves temporarily.happy.

They would so much rather not have the debt and the spending habit that it seems to foster. One has gone to debt counselling.

If they weren't friends I wouldn't know that.they were worried and might be envious of their carefree live today lifestyle.

Don't assume everybody is having a better time of it, but do try to spend some of that vast wealth. I seem to be unable to spend on myself but happily spend when in a relationship.

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I suppose I am just angry and to some extent jealous. The ups and downs I've went through since leaving school were meant to lead me to a world of financial freedom and happy living. The sleepless nights I had when my first business went bust, the 20 hour shifts i pulled forming my current business, the studying, the planning etc. I could have made more dough and been safer financially had I just knocked a lass up straight out of school and played the system.

I had to run down about £45k over several years because of a spinal injury (the NHS is not an entirely reliable safety net it turns out) which would otherwise have gone towards a housing fund and enjoying life a bit more, so I totally get your anger at not being in the position you were working so hard for. That said maybe it's better to let go of how we thought things were going to go and focus on making what we have right now worth having?

There are more options than just being a debt-slave or an eternally vigilant saver. Even if you never saved another penny and spent your disposable income from here on in on enjoying yourself then you'd still be in a better position in a HPC than these guys on FB, right? Potentially you can pick and choose between adding to your savings or adding to your life experiences on a month by month basis, or saving for a different purpose and taking a total sabbatical to do something beyond the normal. How many people with a mortgage and a property to maintain could say that?

While it's clear the need for a HPC is already built up in the system, we can't know the exact details of how it will play out on the ground until it actually does, so we can only operate on best guesses on how to prepare for it effectively. It seems likely that any correction will keep prices reasonable for at least a few years, and even if you did need to borrow on top of your savings to take advantage of this would that be such a terrible thing if it was at a reasonable income multiple and loan to value ratio?

Given the details are somewhat out of your hands maybe it's best to relax about trying to be in a good position for a HPC and focus on enjoying the benefits of the position you're currently in and the flexibility it affords you.

Sorry if I sound like a self help book dry.gif

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Then you'd be someone else.

I get the impression you might already appreciate this but thinking along these lines, in my experience, doesn't usually lead to any solutions.

A different way of pitching the thread might be 'How can a thoughtful, prudent person achieve happiness in modern society?'. I wouldn't pretend there are easy answers but getting hung up on the apparent material well-being of airheads can only be corrosive imho.

This, really. Without going in to a tedious history of my life I've got to the age of 34 never having owed more than £3.5k, despite having married a spendthrift aged 24 and having a ludicrous alcoholic as my best mate for much of my 20s.

Now I'm 34, wife and I live a pretty easy life in my mum's big house, and I've got £100k of inheritance in the bank. My only real regret is that I've not been true to my teenage motorcycle fantasies- but I plan to buy a shitty old track bike and do some trackdays this year.

I did the debt worry in my early 20s through not much fault of my own. Can't buy/ Won't buy in London- so just living it up at the moment. On the one hand I worry that I wasted my best years- but on the other at 34 I look old but don't feel it, my wife still fancies me, and I've learned that life is a game and you mustn't take it seriously! :lol:

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This, really. Without going in to a tedious history of my life I've got to the age of 34 never having owed more than £3.5k, despite having married a spendthrift aged 24 and having a ludicrous alcoholic as my best mate for much of my 20s.

Now I'm 34, wife and I live a pretty easy life in my mum's big house, and I've got £100k of inheritance in the bank. My only real regret is that I've not been true to my teenage motorcycle fantasies- but I plan to buy a shitty old track bike and do some trackdays this year.

I did the debt worry in my early 20s through not much fault of my own. Can't buy/ Won't buy in London- so just living it up at the moment. On the one hand I worry that I wasted my best years- but on the other at 34 I look old but don't feel it, my wife still fancies me, and I've learned that life is a game and you mustn't take it seriously! :lol:

Ah ha! Motorcycles are always good things to buy. A good used one need not cost much.

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I know three people who are deeply unhappy about their debts but don't show it to the world and spend money they haven't got to try to keep up a front and make themselves temporarily.happy.

They would so much rather not have the debt and the spending habit that it seems to foster. One has gone to debt counselling.

If they weren't friends I wouldn't know that.they were worried and might be envious of their carefree live today lifestyle.

Don't assume everybody is having a better time of it, but do try to spend some of that vast wealth. I seem to be unable to spend on myself but happily spend when in a relationship.

I know someone like that! He's paying it all off now, but he did make some unwise purchases, when he should not have done. I too have been there, and now I'm a tightwad! :blink:

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... there are a lot of people who earn arsing loads, but live like monks...don't really understand that...

Perhaps people can find their happinesses in different ways.

I have the feeling that, one way or another, society teaches us that consumerism/materialism is the only road to happiness.

If you die with a huge pile of unspent money but found a way to be perfectly content along the way, that maybe that's as good (or better) than the various short-term highs that many of us seem to feel from spending all the disposable cash along the way.

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I suppose I am just angry and to some extent jealous. The ups and downs I've went through since leaving school were meant to lead me to a world of financial freedom and happy living. The sleepless nights I had when my first business went bust, the 20 hour shifts i pulled forming my current business, the studying, the planning etc. I could have made more dough and been safer financially had I just knocked a lass up straight out of school and played the system.

I am feeling the same at the moment, and I think I have to face up to it and get over what is largely envy/jealousy.

Mentored a colleague ten years 'behind' me. This week she moves into a five-bed with two acres in her home town and is in a job that pays more than me.

No point it getting eaten with jealousy. Might as well just get on with my life.

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Then you'd be someone else.

I get the impression you might already appreciate this but thinking along these lines, in my experience, doesn't usually lead to any solutions.

A different way of pitching the thread might be 'How can a thoughtful, prudent person achieve happiness in modern society?'. I wouldn't pretend there are easy answers but getting hung up on the apparent material well-being of airheads can only be corrosive imho.

This is how I see it.......how can buying/accumulating things make people happy long-term......it is an instant gratification that may only bring superficial happiness for a short period of time, then something else will come along to want that they think will make them happy.

We are what we are, some are more needy than others, some want some things entirely different to what others want, some use things to replace a void they have that is missing, often it will be something money cannot buy. ;)

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Perhaps people can find their happinesses in different ways.

I have the feeling that, one way or another, society teaches us that consumerism/materialism is the only road to happiness.

If you die with a huge pile of unspent money but found a way to be perfectly content along the way, that maybe that's as good (or better) than the various short-term highs that many of us seem to feel from spending all the disposable cash along the way.

...although, as I said, happiness may not come from consumerist crap...it can come from life changing experiences...perhaps you volunteer for the VSO in Ethiopia for a year, or walk across Nepal..

If your happy in living in the same house for 40 years, and doing the same job for 30 years, then that's up to you, but I feel its natural for you to want to test yourself in totally alien environments throughout your life...

Even if you learn new skills (could photography, cokking, DIY, etc) that you never knew before is better than sitting on your **** doing the same old same old....

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better than sitting on your **** doing the same old same old....

5460 posts you are worse than me and I had 3 days head start :D

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This fellow is wise enough to play the fool;

And to do that well craves a kind of wit:

He must observe their mood on whom he jests,

The quality of persons, and the time,

And, like the haggard, check at every feather

That comes before his eye. This is a practise

As full of labour as a wise man's art

For folly that he wisely shows is fit;

But wise men, folly-fall'n, quite taint their wit.

William Shakespeare.

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