Independent "anti Immigration Feeling On The Rise"

[Byron]

Noone I know who is ideologically on the "hard left" would dream of voting Labour, especially since Blair first took over. They're essentially considered to be at least as bad as the Conservatives, if not worse because there's a general feeling of betrayal thrown in for good measure.

What sort of dinosaur is still hard left?

[Neverwhere]

The housing 'market' is a system for telling people where they are not permitted to live based on imaginary lines and rule by special flowers. You can't analyse immigration without considering the feudal land system, they are the exact same thing.

Your argument then is extremely radical - no landowners of any kind. In theory, you can make a good case that this would be a damn good thing. In theory.

If we just end national borders then all remaining democratic control over who lives where goes to the feudal state (see the Wilson's recent pronouncements). Movement is still restricted, only by people you can't vote out.

I'm still pissed off at Cromwell for betraying the Diggers and the Levellers on this one :angry:

[Neverwhere]

What sort of dinosaur is still hard left?

Noone in Labour that is for sure. Quite a few of the posters on this site espouse policies which could easily be considered far to the left (assuming we're buying into the whole overly simplistic whole left/right paradigm) of any of the current mainstream parties, so I'm not sure it's dead yet. Maybe it's just evolved?

[TheCountOfNowhere]

As a liberal, I'd begin with the principle that no-one has a God-given right to tell anyone else where they are permitted to live. While it may be necessary to limit population flows for practical reasons, the practice of arbitrarily preventing people from crossing certain imaginary lines seems difficult to justify from an objective point of view. But then I'm no nationalist.

i don't disagree with that, however, when you, your family, your predecessors, your children have worked, died, paid for, the society you live in then for anyone lo be allowed to walk in and immediately benefit from it has its limits for me.

worse than that for the people in charge to allow it so they and their business friends can benefit from it is corrupt.

i don't blame the immigrants, they'd be Daft not to take advantage, i blame them people in charge. this country and several European countries will face growing problem due to immigration and an honest open debate about how we are governed and how the country should be run is needed, which won't happen with the men we have in charge now. people resorting to labelling other people bigots, or worse, racists just because the disagree with the governments and media of the days policy is just not on.

Edited January 9, 2014 by TheCountOfNowhere

[bambam]

I often wonder how people would respond to the idea that all Muslim immigration should be stopped... while immigration by non-Muslims be freely permitted...

Turn round and kick Gypsies and Jews instead, I suspect..

I think you'll find the Muslims (who are primarily South Asian) would prefer to stop immigration from Eastern Europe, because they put severe downward pressure on wages in the low-paid jobs that both groups compete for.

Muslim immigration we signed up to decades ago and isn't really controllable. The Eastern Europeans have only been here a decade and was wholly unnecessary.

[Byron]

Noone in Labour that is for sure. Quite a few of the posters on this site espouse policies which could easily be considered far to the left (assuming we're buying into the whole overly simplistic whole left/right paradigm) of any of the current mainstream parties, so I'm not sure it's dead yet. Maybe it's just evolved?

The reason I ask is that the other day I saw an old man in the pub that I recognised from the 1980's when every Saturday he had a little stall on the pavement in town and sold the 'Militant'. He used to shout a lot also.

When the Berlin wall fell, it sort of took the steam out of him.

The gradual fall from grace of Scargill, Robbo etc. left him exposed.

Now he is very quiet.

[FallingAwake]

As a liberal, I'd begin with the principle that no-one has a God-given right to tell anyone else where they are permitted to live.

Can I come and live in your house for free then? Super!

[Neverwhere]

The reason I ask is that the other day I saw an old man in the pub that I recognised from the 1980's when every Saturday he had a little stall on the pavement in town and sold the 'Militant'. He used to shout a lot also.

When the Berlin wall fell, it sort of took the steam out of him.

The gradual fall from grace of Scargill, Robbo etc. left him exposed.

Now he is very quiet.

Yeh, there are definitely very few remaining who idolise the unions (they just lost too resoundingly and now have such an older demographic they're policies are often out of whack with the priorities of younger workers) or communism (communist dictatorships being what they are), but there are newer ideas which could be considered radically left wing. In terms of considering someone as "hard left" (to the extent that "left" is a useful term) I would include anyone who thinks that we need to radically redistribute wealth away from the 1% and back towards the 99% and who wouldn't be too unhappy if the 1% (and all the Westminster mob) ended up with their backs against the wall in the process. In that sense I think the "hard left" is growing, and it really isn't voting Labour.

On the flipside you do also meet people from the 99% who actively support the fact that the 1% hold a disproportionate amount of the wealth because they have long term, largely destined to fail, amibitions to become 1% ers themselves.

[Guest TheBlueCat]

The other 23% were immigrants.

Actually, that's unfair - if you read about this survey elsewhere it points out that immigrants too think there's too much of it as well.

[Guest TheBlueCat]

So... we live in a nation of bigots.. who knew, eh?

That's not my experience at all, quite the reverse in fact. Look around the world and you'll see that the UK and Anglo-sphere countries in general are amongst the least bigoted places going. We score quite highly for sanctimonious lefty t0ssers though.

[snowflux]

Can I come and live in your house for free then? Super!

No. My house is my private property; I'll decide who lives there and at what charge. The British Isles as a whole are nobody's private property.

[snowflux]

That's not my experience at all, quite the reverse in fact. Look around the world and you'll see that the UK and Anglo-sphere countries in general are amongst the least bigoted places going. We score quite highly for sanctimonious lefty t0ssers though.

The people in the bit of Germany where I lived (in the west) seemed generally less bigoted then British people. Mind you, they had no equivalent of the Daily Mail to get them properly wound up.

[snowflux]

This : http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=D1Z79losqxAC&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=new+immigrants+vote+labour+electoral+commission&source=bl&ots=8CpJLshLm3&sig=0tTMuJZNDoiJo7N7DvNnyd3zJ78&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CunOUrH3F7OM7Aam0IH4DA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg

You said 80% of recent migrants vote labour. The link doesn't support what you said.

[TheCountOfNowhere]

No. My house is my private property; I'll decide who lives there and at what charge. The British Isles as a whole are nobody's private property.

I think you'll find all the land, even the little bit your bank owns and you claim to own ( unless you are mortgage free ) is owned by the queen.

[Guest unfunded_liability]

No. My house is my private property; I'll decide who lives there and at what charge. The British Isles as a whole are nobody's private property.

So you want control over your family property. Is it acceptable that the village tribe would want control over their tribal village property?

[buyerbeware]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2536881/After-one-day-washing-cars-migrant-quits-Workers-say-Romanian-met-Keith-Vaz-Heathrow-vanished.html

When they are human trash like this character are we meant to welcome them.

[campervanman]

That's not my experience at all, quite the reverse in fact. Look around the world and you'll see that the UK and Anglo-sphere countries in general are amongst the least bigoted places going. We score quite highly for sanctimonious lefty t0ssers short term populism encouraged by right wing retards though.

Corrected for you.

[goldbug9999]

The people in the bit of Germany where I lived (in the west) seemed generally less bigoted then British people. Mind you, they had no equivalent of the Daily Mail to get them properly wound up.

And they have a government who actually give a f*** about the indigenous population.

Edited January 10, 2014 by goldbug9999

[FallingAwake]

No. My house is my private property; I'll decide who lives there and at what charge. The British Isles as a whole are nobody's private property.

But most of the British isles IS owned by someone, just like your property is, and hence is "private property".

Besides, that you "own" your property is a legal construction just as a nation occupying a piece of land is a legal construction. You can't automatically claim that YOUR private property is sacrosanct if you then undermine the rights of other legal entities such as a nation state, which essentially enforces your property rights in the first place.

Sheesh, sorry to sound all Injin-like

[FallingAwake]

Here's a better way of thinking about it.

Due to "planning laws", the "green belt" etc, the system essentially herds 95% of the population into 5% of the space, usually the CITIES and TOWNS.

The "pricing mechanism" of property and land, forces a lot of people to gravitate towards CITIES and TOWNS, where a roof over one's head is generally cheaper (i.e. house shares, bedsits, flats, and more property in general).

When new immigrants come, they inevitably gravitate towards those same CITIES and TOWNS, because that's where they are most likely able to afford.

Hence, a large number of British people are not only herded into 5% of the space, but they then find themselves also competing with an ever-increasing number of immigrants for scarce resources like "a roof over one's head", or a seat on a train.

So the real issue is RESOURCES.

The British people are being forced to compete with immigrants for resources that are made artificially scarce by the current system.

And, while a lot of people probably haven't thought it through to this extent, THIS is probably the underlying reason for "anti immigration feeling".

It's not so much the immigrants, as THE SYSTEM that forces British people to compete with immigrants for ever more "scarce" resources.

[billybong]

and even before the huge influx of people from overseas in the 2001 to 2011 period (about 1 million from the eu plus about 1.5 million from elsewhere in that period - and still continuing) plus the 1.5 million or so extra indigenous in that period there was already steadily worsening congestion especially in London and getting far worse as that decade progressed.

Demonstrated by the London Congestion Charge introduced in 2003 - and a subsequent attempt to introduce a similar scheme in Manchester in 2008.

So they're increasing making life more and more unpleasant through more and more congestion and then charging people for the privilege.

Edited January 11, 2014 by billybong