You Are What You Do (Post Only For Men, No Girls Allowed To Read It)

[rw42]

You get speaking to two people down the pub.

One tells you about how they have, after ten years' solid gameplay, the most powerful wizard in World of Orcs.

The other talks about their cycling club, how they built their own shed, and the classic car that they keep on the road themself.

Which one would you like to have another pint with next week?

I figure for achievements to have value you have to have a shared understanding of what they mean.

I play WoW - i lead my own guild and 10 man raids.

What i value - the socialisation with people (on voice chat while raiding, in game chatroom while not).

I've got to handle recruitment for the guild, managing people's performance, inviting people to raids, handling the people that drop out, plans for the future, personality conflicts, and more.

The interest to me is never in having the most powerful character ever - it's the cooperation, skill and effort needed to get the hardest fights down.

I think i'm learning social skills, leadership, coordination, having fun, saving money that i'd be spending at the pub.

For someone to say they killed garrosh 10 man normal difficulty, you need to have an understanding of how difficult that fight is, to have any interest or appreciation of it as an achievement. Much like someone telling me they ran a 5k in 30 minutes - i wouldn't know if it's easy, hard or impossible.

I could rephrase the whole thing:

Some people that play sports are competitive arseholes.

Some people that play online games are competitive arseholes.

Competitive arseholes don't often value the achievements of people with different interests.

[Frank Hovis]

I figure for achievements to have value you have to have a shared understanding of what they mean.

I play WoW - i lead my own guild and 10 man raids.

What i value - the socialisation with people (on voice chat while raiding, in game chatroom while not).

I've got to handle recruitment for the guild, managing people's performance, inviting people to raids, handling the people that drop out, plans for the future, personality conflicts, and more.

The interest to me is never in having the most powerful character ever - it's the cooperation, skill and effort needed to get the hardest fights down.

I think i'm learning social skills, leadership, coordination, having fun, saving money that i'd be spending at the pub.

For someone to say they killed garrosh 10 man normal difficulty, you need to have an understanding of how difficult that fight is, to have any interest or appreciation of it as an achievement. Much like someone telling me they ran a 5k in 30 minutes - i wouldn't know if it's easy, hard or impossible.

I could rephrase the whole thing:

Some people that play sports are competitive arseholes.

Some people that play online games are competitive arseholes.

Competitive arseholes don't often value the achievements of people with different interests.

I deliberately couched my post in neutral language.

My point is:

• one hobby / set of hobbies is accessible and of interest to many people

• one is not

I had a friend who was getting no job interviews; I offered to review his CV. He had put down prominently a major interest in a couple of philosophers.

Now this is (for me) a laudable interest. It is however also a specialist and above all closed interest that means nothing to an average person. I advised him to take them off his CV and he started getting interviews.

If you are spending a high proportion of your time doing something that the average person has zero interest in then it will make you a less interesting person, not a more interesting person.

Most people are aware enough to self-edit. So for example some women at work will mention what they did with their kids at the weekend if it was inherently interesting, others will start telling you the history of their grades at dance class* Which one are you going to speak to and which avoid?

Gaming is a hobby that excludes rather than includes. Sure do it if you enjoy it, but be aware that most people will look down on you for doing it as they do somebody who obsesses about Katie Price or Eastenders.

* I worked with somebody who, in order to show what a good memory they had, listed out for me the registration number of every car that their father had owner. That was five minutes that I won't get back.

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

Gaming is a hobby that excludes rather than includes.

Isn't this true of any hobby ? There are people who are interested in it and people who aren't.

It's no more or less exclusive than football, archery or stamp collecting. Some people would argue less so, because getting into your local stamp club may be hard because people there only want a certain type. Whereas to participate in a gaming team all you need to do it go online and you can find hundreds of people to play with. Yes, some will be snotty like the "real" world, but a lot will be helpful.

And people look down on other people for all sorts of reasons. But mainly because their own life is shit and they want to feel better about themselves. Or they need to feel part of a group and looking down on other people re-enforces that feeling and helps them feel they have social status above the "saddo gamers".

Are any of these reasons laudable ?

[rw42]

I deliberately couched my post in neutral language.

My point is:

• one hobby / set of hobbies is accessible and of interest to many people

• one is not

I had a friend who was getting no job interviews; I offered to review his CV. He had put down prominently a major interest in a couple of philosophers.

Now this is (for me) a laudable interest. It is however also a specialist and above all closed interest that means nothing to an average person. I advised him to take them off his CV and he started getting interviews.

If you are spending a high proportion of your time doing something that the average person has zero interest in then it will make you a less interesting person, not a more interesting person.

Most people are aware enough to self-edit. So for example some women at work will mention what they did with their kids at the weekend if it was inherently interesting, others will start telling you the history of their grades at dance class* Which one are you going to speak to and which avoid?

Gaming is a hobby that excludes rather than includes. Sure do it if you enjoy it, but be aware that most people will look down on you for doing it as they do somebody who obsesses about Katie Price or Eastenders.

* I worked with somebody who, in order to show what a good memory they had, listed out for me the registration number of every car that their father had owner. That was five minutes that I won't get back.

Sort of agree - i know people at work that play wow, and i talk about to them. We talk about the tactics we use to get fights down, dealing with idiots in guild and so on. I wouldn't discuss any of it with people down the pub or anyone that i don't know plays it.

The problem isn't that random bloke has a good memory, it's that he thinks demonstrating it is something you'd find interesting. I think everyone makes those sorts of judgements in social situations, some people are inept and some people are good at it. ABC is what i'm interested in, CDE is what you're interested in, lets talk about C.

I think all interests are becoming more specialised though. I wouldn't expect anyone that doesn't play WoW to have any interest in hearing about it, probably because they would have no appreciation of difficulty or skill in anything i'd talk about. In the same vein, i'm not a sports player. I've got no interest in hearing about or watching football.

I wouldn't have any interest in hearing about a shed, a cycling club or a classic car. We could either say that i'm just not an average person and shouldn't expect to have shared interests with people, or just find something else to talk about.

There's also a lot of sports for which i'd do, but have no interest in watching. Skiing for example - the people i might watch on TV are at a skill level so far in advance of mine that i just wouldn't it interesting to watch. I'd be happy going down a mountain slope though..

What's the goal of an interest? To get you marketable skills, or to have fun? Does it need to have a reason or possibility of self improvement behind it?

Playing sports might get you fit, or might get you injured.

Playing computer games might improve your reaction times, give you some social interaction, and teach you about teamworking, or it might just turn you into an elitist jerk.

I still figure it's a case of people will do what they enjoy, and different people do the same thing for different reasons.

[Riedquat]

I still figure it's a case of people will do what they enjoy, and different people do the same thing for different reasons.

Exactly. At the end of the day there's not much point in doing anything with life other than trying to enjoy it so anyone who tries to denigrate anything you do that doesn't affect anyone else is just a jerk. There are a few posts in this thread that I find rather depressing, since they seem to boil down to "My hobby is better than your hobby," seemingly based on the fact that it's more popular so you're more likely to bump into someone in the pub who'll want to talk about it. There's only anything wrong with anything you do when it starts turning into addictive behaviour that's affecting your life negatively, because you could be spending the time or money on something you'd enjoy more. The fact that it might be completely unsociable is entirely beside the point - there's no fundamental truth that sociable is good, it's just what some people like doing.

[Dorkins]

If you are spending a high proportion of your time doing something that the average person has zero interest in then it will make you a less interesting person, not a more interesting person.

More interesting to who? There is no absolute scale of interestingness. The average person is interested in X-Factor, shopping and football. I'm not sure that being interesting to the average person is really something to aspire to.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Yes, fair point. And moreover people (or certain types of people) will specifically devalue the things in which they have less aptitude or knowledge. "If I'm not good at it, it must be pointless".

Instead of just saying "I like X and I dislike Y", we feel the need to say "I like X because it's GOOD and I dislike Y because it's BAD". Fragile little thing the ego, much better to just relax, breathe and enjoy life

P

I think the word is 'fanboi'.

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

I think this is partly to do with the older generation not understanding gaming because they never took part in it from an early stage in life.

It is probably quite a significant divide in society.

The 8-bit scene really started gaming in the mid 80s, 82 if I remember correctly. Thus if you were over the age of 18 when it hit there is increased probablility that computer games were'nt around when you were a kid and that you view them quite differently from someone who was born in say 1980, who would have grown up with games and views them quite differently as a legitimate form of entertainment.

A lot of 70 year olds will happily tell you computer games are a waste of time, the youth of today etc while spending 40 hours a week watching telly.

In 20 years time all so this attitude will dissapear, as will the same attitude of anyone who does not do the internet (don't want any of that new fangled nonsense).

[Frank Hovis]

More interesting to who? There is no absolute scale of interestingness. The average person is interested in X-Factor, shopping and football. I'm not sure that being interesting to the average person is really something to aspire to.

Before we descend entirely into relativism can we go back to rw42's point that if you are interested in ABC and the other person CDE then you should mostly talk C.

Now in order for there to be a C people need to have interests that have a bit of common ground or intrinsic interest.

If somebody is spending all their time, going back to my real world example, reading all the works of a particular philosopher that most people haven't heard of then they're not going to have much in the C category to talk about and will not be somebody people want to talk to. It is an excluding way to spend your time.

Fine do it for its own sake but if I was aware that something I was devoting much of my time to was something that would not interest or impress anybody then I would question why I was spending so much time doing it unless it had other benefits.

So, one of my hobbies: kayaking. I do it because I like it, it puts me into beautiful locations, gives me exercise and a tan. People are interested to hear about it and ask advice on what kayak they might buy. When I meet other people who do it we talk about it and swap tips and locations in an entirely non-competitive way.

I would still do it if it didn't bring those benefits because I enjoy it, but if it didn't bring any such benefits then I would question why I was spending so much time doing it. It is a hobby that brings me more social interaction, not less, and therefore IMO worthwhile.

[Frank Hovis]

Often someone will tell you that your hobbies/interests are 'dull', or somehow amusing/sad - but then you find out you're talking to someone who would happily list 'shopping' or 'Sky TV' as an interest....

BTW - what is the compulsion amongst people of a certain age to put BBC News 24 on all the time? My in-laws simply can't get enough of it for some reason

When younger I visited an elderly relative in a home with my family, whilst I was with her an old boy came in every few minutes to ask "Is the news on yet?". My dad is a bit prone to watching the news over and over again but quoting at him "Is the news on yet?" stops him from turning it on yet again

Whilst I have a personal loathing of it I do (bit controversial here) accept shopping as a valid hobby for people who like possessions. There is a real interest in discovering new shops, looking for bargains, finding the right presents. I do it myself in a limited way in that if wandering around a town I will go into the odd charity shop out of interest; I rarely buy anything.

Watching TV is not a hobby. I think that was lesson one when we had CV writing classes at school; put down that you watch a lot of TV and you may as well put your application into the bin rather than the post box.

[Dorkins]

Before we descend entirely into relativism can we go back to rw42's point that if you are interested in ABC and the other person CDE then you should mostly talk C.

Now in order for there to be a C people need to have interests that have a bit of common ground or intrinsic interest.

If somebody is spending all their time, going back to my real world example, reading all the works of a particular philosopher that most people haven't heard of then they're not going to have much in the C category to talk about and will not be somebody people want to talk to. It is an excluding way to spend your time.

Fine do it for its own sake but if I was aware that something I was devoting much of my time to was something that would not interest or impress anybody then I would question why I was spending so much time doing it unless it had other benefits.

So, one of my hobbies: kayaking. I do it because I like it, it puts me into beautiful locations, gives me exercise and a tan. People are interested to hear about it and ask advice on what kayak they might buy. When I meet other people who do it we talk about it and swap tips and locations in an entirely non-competitive way.

I would still do it if it didn't bring those benefits because I enjoy it, but if it didn't bring any such benefits then I would question why I was spending so much time doing it. It is a hobby that brings me more social interaction, not less, and therefore IMO worthwhile.

Most of my 20 to 30-something male friends and relatives are gamers. It is a very common interest in this demographic group. I personally haven't sat down to play a videogame for almost a decade now, but I don't mind other people talking about them or playing games when I'm around. There's plenty of "intrinsic interest" for the non-gamer: the in-game art can be beautiful to look at, the mental or physical challenge of solving a puzzle or executing a difficult manoeuvre can excite and impress, the plotlines can be interesting and challenging like a book or a film. There is also a social side to gaming. My gamer friends and relatives play games while sat together in the same room or they play together over the internet if they live far apart. They have fun, and so long as gaming isn't the only thing they do with their leisure time it all seems pretty harmless.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree about whether or not it matters what a random person from a different demographic thinks about your hobby.

[Riedquat]

I would still do it if it didn't bring those benefits because I enjoy it, but if it didn't bring any such benefits then I would question why I was spending so much time doing it. It is a hobby that brings me more social interaction, not less, and therefore IMO worthwhile.

And therefore I presume that social interaction and kayaking are both something you enjoy. That's fine, but not everyone enjoys either of them. Exactly the same points as you make are those that someone who enjoys games will make, just the details of what they want and enjoy will be different. It all boils down to "I enjoy it." If you enjoy something that's all you need to say to justify doing it, because that's the only benefit that matters.

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

I would still do it if it didn't bring those benefits because I enjoy it, but if it didn't bring any such benefits then I would question why I was spending so much time doing it. It is a hobby that brings me more social interaction, not less, and therefore IMO worthwhile.

So basically you are judging "wothwhileness" of a hobby on how much social interaction it generates ?

This is overly judgemental. It may be one of the objectives/reasons why people undertake hobbies, but surely it is not the sole one. In fact many people do hobbies to get away from the rest of humanity.

Coming back to computer games, as others have pointed out I think it's worth adding that the view that computer games are about people locked away in their bedrooms having no social interaction whatsoever is archaic. All the action these days in computer games is in mass participation. Teamwork, communication, fighting against each other or against common enemies, or even shared experience. One of my favourite nights in is the beer and curry night where me and my mate do call of duty on co-op mode. It takes teamwork, skill and communcation (and normally a fair bit of abuse) to overcome the enemy. I would much rather do this than sit in a pub talking about football.

Maybe you should try computer games to increase your level of worthiness and social interaction !

[Hail the Tripod]

It all boils down to "I enjoy it." If you enjoy something that's all you need to say to justify doing it, because that's the only benefit that matters.

The original was posted on MGTOW forum, which I presume (and cursory inspection supports) to be largely populated by men who are having trouble maintaining a healthy relationship with women. If you are going to a site like that because you are dissatisfied with your life, and more specifically with your relationship with women, and you do heavily indulge in the 3 listed activities as escapism from your unhappiness then you should cut down and re-focus your energy. Alternatively, if you are able to maintain healthy relationships and a cheery disposition, but happen to enjoy these things recreationally... well to be honest, you're unlikely to be reading that site much in the first place.

[Dorkins]

I think this thread has hit on a bit of a Generation X - Generation Y cultural divide.

[Frank Hovis]

The original was posted on MGTOW forum, which I presume (and cursory inspection supports) to be largely populated by men who are having trouble maintaining a healthy relationship with women. If you are going to a site like that because you are dissatisfied with your life, and more specifically with your relationship with women, and you do heavily indulge in the 3 listed activities as escapism from your unhappiness then you should cut down and re-focus your energy. Alternatively, if you are able to maintain healthy relationships and a cheery disposition, but happen to enjoy these things recreationally... well to be honest, you're unlikely to be reading that site much in the first place.

Yes. What surprised me was the level of objection to the original statement on there so I wanted to post it on here, with the assumption that there would be general agreement to the statement here. It's not been as cut and dried as I was expecting, I would say generally there's an agreement with the caveat that some posters see gaming as a social activity. I suppose having read some of what people are saying then I would maybe class some of it in with the Diplomacy / Risk evenings that I used to do rather than people playing space invaders for hours.

[Riedquat]

Yes. What surprised me was the level of objection to the original statement on there so I wanted to post it on here, with the assumption that there would be general agreement to the statement here. It's not been as cut and dried as I was expecting, I would say generally there's an agreement with the caveat that some posters see gaming as a social activity. I suppose having read some of what people are saying then I would maybe class some of it in with the Diplomacy / Risk evenings that I used to do rather than people playing space invaders for hours.

There still seems to be an underlying assumption that "social == good", "not social == bad". That's somewhat different I think from what Hail the Tripod was saying, that some people are refusing to deal with their problems. The nature of the activities that they fill their time with instead of facing the problems is entirely beside the point, and could just as well involve social ones (always off with your mates instead of facing your issues at home for example).

[bendy]

There still seems to be an underlying assumption that "social == good", "not social == bad". That's somewhat different I think from what Hail the Tripod was saying, that some people are refusing to deal with their problems. The nature of the activities that they fill their time with instead of facing the problems is entirely beside the point, and could just as well involve social ones (always off with your mates instead of facing your issues at home for example).

Indeed - hell is other people!

[MrPin]

I've met very few people I have nothing in common with!

I don't expect everyone to share all of my hobbies! If they "glaze over", you are talking over-enthusiastically about the "wrong" subject!

[erat_forte]

I have no interest in computer games

I have no interest in sport

I have no interest in porn

Am I gay?

[SNACR]

I have no interest in computer games

I have no interest in sport

I have no interest in porn

Am I gay?

Don't know but I've got a spare copy of Naturist Women's Volleyball 3 for the X-box if you're interested?

[Neverwhere]

I think this thread has hit on a bit of a Generation X - Generation Y cultural divide.

More like a mid-Gen X divide, as anyone who was 10 when gaming really got going in the mid-80s will probably have played at one time or another.

It's interesting that the type of gaming we're focusing on here as being potentially anti-social actually often has socialising built in: either lending itself to online interactions (they're not called massive multiplayer for nothing) or real life social gatherings where you play with or against your mates (otherwise they wouldn't have multiplayer options and multiple controllers). I know lots of people who play these kinds of games. I don't know anyone who regularly plays them in single player mode without any form of social interaction.

The other side of gaming, which a lot of people engage in without thinking of it as gaming at all, are all the little apps that the whole carriage seems to be playing every time I get on a train these days. Recently a (female) games journalist acquaintance of mine was bemoaning the tendency of these app developers to focus on games metrics to such an extent that they are essentially actively trying to make the games addictive rather than just playable (i.e. the general tendency is to work out why you've stopped playing at any given point and then change the game so that that never happens again).

What's more social: working with a group of people online to achieve a common goal, having some mates round for a friendly tournament, or staring fixedly into your smartphone at a single player OCD-fest?

Sorry if I'm just indulging in yet another your hobby is not as cool as mine rant

[SNACR]

The other side of gaming, which a lot of people engage in without thinking of it as gaming at all, are all the little apps that the whole carriage seems to be playing every time I get on a train these days. Recently a (female) games journalist acquaintance of mine was bemoaning the tendency of these app developers to focus on games metrics to such an extent that they are essentially actively trying to make the games addictive rather than just playable (i.e. the general tendency is to work out why you've stopped playing at any given point and then change the game so that that never happens again).

What's more social: working with a group of people online to achieve a common goal, having some mates round for a friendly tournament, or staring fixedly into your smartphone at a single player OCD-fest?

Sorry if I'm just indulging in yet another your hobby is not as cool as mine rant

It wasn't exactly a social networking event on public transport prior to smartphones, as I recall, though.

[ARIMA]

There's nowt as queer as folk.

I don't play computer games - I can't be arsed dedicating the time to learn how to play them, it seems futile. However I marvel the artistry and sophistication of it all and in the past have quite enjoyed watching other people play. Would be very interested to chat to someone in a pub about WoW - i know nothing about it but the whole thing intrigues me, like a form of counterculture.

I used to play a lot of football and spend a lot of time watching it on TV. I don't however have much interest in watching it live (over-priced, takes hours including travel time, football crowds are often atrocious people). Not much bores me more than talking about football - the dullest conversation in the world. But I'm never giving up my Sky subscription (also love Rugby and boxing).

I've been in a life long love affair with television - sport, movies, documentaries, news, quality shows (GoT, Homeland etc). Wife subjects me to x-factor etc.

I like exercise generally, but mostly running. Lots of friends into Triathlon but to me it just seems a pointlessly over-engineered way to exercise - expensive equipment, travel time, logistics. Just get up and go for a run! Would love to do more outdoorsy stuff like kayaking, skiing etc but wife is more of a beach type.

Don't watch much p0rn these days, but spend hours on HPC. Enjoy online poker but don't play much currently. Was into trading/ punting the markets but again too time intensive. Used to read a lot but not so much currently.

Booze relentlessly, both with other people and on my own.

Not sure what my point is, other than that people's interests are often not clear cut.

DISCLAIMER: I am married with young kids and don't get out much at the moment.

[Neverwhere]

It wasn't exactly a social networking event on public transport prior to smartphones, as I recall, though.

Good point. I guess I just find it disconcerting being surrounded by other people, none of whom actually seem to be present. A bit like that Bruce Willis film where everyone stays at home to operate their Blade Runner style avatar which goes out to work and socialise for them...