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Pq17: An Arctic Convoy Disaster

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03n3297

Jeremy Clarkson tells the dramatic story of the Arctic convoys of the Second World War, from Russia to the freezing Arctic Ocean.

Accompanied by moving first hand testimony from the men who served on these convoys, Clarkson reveals the incredible hazards faced by members of the Merchant and Royal Navy who delivered vital war supplies via the Arctic to the Soviet Union: temperatures of minus 50 degrees, huge icebergs, colossal waves, not to mention German U-boats and the Luftwaffe. It is no wonder that Churchill described the Arctic Convoys as 'the worst journey in the world.'

I hope this is worthy of the bravery shown by those in the convoys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convoy_PQ_17

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03n3297

I hope this is worthy of the bravery shown by those in the convoys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convoy_PQ_17

My father was in the RN, on North Atlantic convoys for two years, and that was quite bad enough, constantly losing ships to German subs, never mind the winter gales on those little ships. He was very lucky to survive at all. What the Arctic convoy crews had to endure doesn't bear thinking about.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03n3297

I hope this is worthy of the bravery shown by those in the convoys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convoy_PQ_17

The best non-fiction account of PQ-17 I've read is David Irving's The Destruction of PQ-17. Fiction-wise, HMS Ulysses is a remarkable book. The time has passed now but it should have been made into a film. I guess it was just too bleak.

Clarkson's earlier efforts at retelling desperate WW2 battles were a little too tabloid, and in some places factually inaccurate, for my tastes. However, that's the nature of the medium he works in I guess and I can see why they would be popular.

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My father was in the RN, on North Atlantic convoys for two years, and that was quite bad enough, constantly losing ships to German subs, never mind the winter gales on those little ships. He was very lucky to survive at all. What the Arctic convoy crews had to endure doesn't bear thinking about.

Well yes.

My second cousin was LT commander of a minesweeper (Arcturus) which did the northern run but was not brought into service until 1943 (October)

I remember the old boy being happy about getting a medal from Breshnev in the eighties though.

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Well yes.

My second cousin was LT commander of a minesweeper (Arcturus) which did the northern run but was not brought into service until 1943 (October)

I remember the old boy being happy about getting a medal from Breshnev in the eighties though.

Fascinating story! The Russians still seem to like the Brits! :huh:

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Fascinating story! The Russians still seem to like the Brits! :huh:

Well yes. I know very little about the Arcturus `cept for the fact that it was built in Canada and was Captained by m second cousin until it

was handed back to the US at the end of the war.

Do the Russians really like us? I suspect that "help given to Russia" might provoke a wry Russian smile...

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Well yes. I know very little about the Arcturus `cept for the fact that it was built in Canada and was Captained by m second cousin until it

was handed back to the US at the end of the war.

Do the Russians really like us? I suspect that "help given to Russia" might provoke a wry Russian smile...

They should like me! I bought all their cars! ;) And some motorbikes! :o

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Well yes. I know very little about the Arcturus `cept for the fact that it was built in Canada and was Captained by m second cousin until it

was handed back to the US at the end of the war.

Do the Russians really like us? I suspect that "help given to Russia" might provoke a wry Russian smile...

They like my brother, he married one. Over there now visiting his in laws.

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They should like me! I bought all their cars! ;) And some motorbikes! :o

Good god! We`ve got a Mazda 2 and a Nissan and I`ve never bought a bike that wasn`t Japanese.....despite what they did to our boys!

Even my helmet is shoei.

Maybe there`s a lesson here, ******ed if I can find it though...

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The best non-fiction account of PQ-17 I've read is David Irving's The Destruction of PQ-17. Fiction-wise, HMS Ulysses is a remarkable book. The time has passed now but it should have been made into a film. I guess it was just too bleak.

Forgotten Sacrifice: The Arctic Convoys of World War II

This was a decent read by Walling that covered the whole enterprise.

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Dont think Tirpitz was the most powerful battleship at the time, the Yamato had 18" guns. Although if Tirpitz had radar controlled guns and it was night it would have the clear advantage.

Once more it appears the man in charge was far too ill to do the job.

Sometimes I find it amazing we didnt lose the war. Incompetence riddled the military.

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I'm sure Nelson would be proud the first Sea Lord ordered the Royal Navy to run away because of a single Battleship.

Although the question of why the convoy didn't have Battleship cover was never addressed.

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The best non-fiction account of PQ-17 I've read is David Irving's The Destruction of PQ-17. Fiction-wise, HMS Ulysses is a remarkable book. The time has passed now but it should have been made into a film. I guess it was just too bleak.

Clarkson's earlier efforts at retelling desperate WW2 battles were a little too tabloid, and in some places factually inaccurate, for my tastes. However, that's the nature of the medium he works in I guess and I can see why they would be popular.

I would also recommend Nicholas Monsarrat's novel, The Cruel Sea. I first read it expecting not to like it, and have read it several times since then.

I haven't watched Clarkson's documentary yet, but it's been recorded, so I'll get around to it sometime. ;)

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After the mass surrenders/retreats of Dunkirk, Hong Kong and Singapore, Churchill for one doubted the fighting spirit of the British Empire.

Dunkirk was down to poor leadership, same with Singapore. Once you have men who know that their leaders are poor they don't want to fight.

Italy's poor performance in both 1st/2nd world war can be seen as due to the populace not being behind the elite and simply refusing to fight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rif_War

Initially, the Spanish forces in Morocco were largely composed of conscripts and reservists from Spain itself. These "Peninsular" troops were poorly supplied and prepared, few had marksmanship skills and proper battle training, and widespread corruption was reported amongst the officer corps, reducing supplies and morale. Even with their numerical superiority, they proved no match for the highly skilled and motivated Rifian forces. Accordingly, much reliance came to be placed on the mainly professional units comprising Spain's Army of Africa. Since 1911, these had included regiments of Moroccan Regulares, who proved to be excellent soldiers.

The result was troops slaughtered.

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I'm sure Nelson would be proud the first Sea Lord ordered the Royal Navy to run away because of a single Battleship.

Although the question of why the convoy didn't have Battleship cover was never addressed.

Nelson may have been from Norfolk but he was no fool.

Could it be that that a battleship could sink a British cruiser and the like while far, far off the horizon?

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Nelson may have been from Norfolk but he was no fool.

Could it be that that a battleship could sink a British cruiser and the like while far, far off the horizon?

Would it be able to sink them all? Although long range shots had previous, however the Glorious should never have been lost as it should have been operating it's aircraft for cover. I think it's the only time capital ships have sunk an aircraft carrier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Warspite_%2803%29

During the battle Warspite achieved one of the longest range gunnery hits from a moving ship to a moving target in history, hitting the Giulio Cesare at a range of approximately 26,000 yards,[51] the other being a shot from Scharnhorst which hit Glorious at approximately the same distance in June 1940.[52]

Kirishima was lost to the radar controlled guns of the Washington.

However if the Tirpritz was such a threat why didn't the Admiralty send one or two battleships to shadow the convoy?

But as the show stated all intelligence placed the Tirpitz in Norway and it hadn't sailed.

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