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I signed up. They need 1 million more signatures in two weeks. A tall order, but here's the link:

http://basicincome2013.eu/ubi/signup-page

right, so where is the money for all of this coming from?

money has to be earned before it gets spent.

I'm all for a better deal for those actually contributing something to society, but not free sweeties for all.

seems like bribery to me.not to be trusted IMHO.

better work towards having a decent living wage, affordable housing and less state(or corporate) interference...including state and corporate hoarding.

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It would easily be affordable if pensioners were not treated as special snowflakes. Treat old age welfare recipients the same as everyone else on welfare and about a hundred billion per year would be saved. That would be about thirty pounds each for everyone in the country.

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right, so where is the money for all of this coming from?

money has to be earned before it gets spent.

I'm all for a better deal for those actually contributing something to society, but not free sweeties for all.

seems like bribery to me.not to be trusted IMHO.

better work towards having a decent living wage, affordable housing and less state(or corporate) interference...including state and corporate hoarding.

Why not think of it as direct compensation for state and corporate hoarding? i.e. for all of the things, such as food, water, shelter, warmth, which the majority of human beings would be able to provide directly for themselves were it not for the existence of the state?

Physically I could find a piece of unused land and build myself a house and a well and grow food and firewood, and this is exactly what all our ancestors did until prevented from doing so by the artificial state concept of land ownership. Surely either that state of affairs needs to change or some sort of compensation is in order?

It's earnt by our giving up our right to do all of those natural human things above, and it's paid for by removing other state benefits.

An EU-wide CI would also handily solve the problem of free immigration across widely differing welfare systems.

Voted in favour and would encourage others to do so.

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Hmmm.... according to that site, CI should be 60% national median net income, so for the UK thats about 15k per year. There are about 33 million in the UK of working age. Now by definition everyone gets it, so thats 33,000,000 x 15k = 465 billion a year. Or is this only for people who don't work? In which case if someone's going to hand out 15k to everyone if you don't work, why on earth would you bother?

Better get the printing presses ready for that one.

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Hmmm.... according to that site, CI should be 60% national median net income, so for the UK thats about 15k per year. There are about 33 million in the UK of working age. Now by definition everyone gets it, so thats 33,000,000 x 15k = 465 billion a year. Or is this only for people who don't work? In which case if someone's going to hand out 15k to everyone if you don't work, why on earth would you bother?

Better get the printing presses ready for that one.

I think its for everyone irrespective of working status.

They take a reasonable idea then completely mess it up with such an unrealistic figure of 60% of median income.

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Why not think of it as direct compensation for state and corporate hoarding? i.e. for all of the things, such as food, water, shelter, warmth, which the majority of human beings would be able to provide directly for themselves were it not for the existence of the state?

hah, you'd probably be dead within a week.

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Hmmm.... according to that site, CI should be 60% national median net income, so for the UK thats about 15k per year.

Since when was the UK's median net income £25k per adult?

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Since when was the UK's median net income £25k per adult?

You'd have to include people of working age who don't actively earn a wage (stay at home parents, for instance) to get a figure for the whole adult population so might be better top calculate from household rather than individual incomes?

Median net UK household income is £564/wk https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/median-households-net-earnings-by-household-type-in-the-uk-201112 so assuming most households include two working age adults (agreed this is a slap dash assumption but given the number of working age kids still stuck at home with parents it should probably come out in the wash) median net income per adult would be somewhere in the region of £282/wk and a citizen's income at 60% of that would be around £169/wk. This doesn't seem too outlandish as long as other welfare benefits were removed and a universal CI applied instead.

This would put the total CI bill somewhere in the region of £290bn annually, which granted is significantly higher than the current £167bn, but I'd bet good money that the difference could be made up by clamping down on tax havens, simplifying taxation so that there were less opportunities for loopholes, and bringing capital gains back in line with income tax so the 1% have to pay the same tax on their income as the rest of us.

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You could also make a rule that only people of British descent (as in descended from the native stock who have been here for centuries) got the Citizen's Income.

We're constantly told immigrants are here to finance our pensions and benefits - although I think it works the other way round in most cases. But in any case, if they're here to support us - let's run with that concept - and only give ourselves the CI. That would be cheaper.

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Anyone who thinks this might actually happen is in cloud-cuckoo land. I think it has begun to dawn even on Eurocrats who have been so used to gaily squandering vast amounts of other people's money that the traditional models of Western European benefits as they stand are unsustainable. We are all now having to compete with countries where if benefits exist at all, they are far less generous. This was not the case when those benefits systems were first introduced.

The poster who said money has to be earned before it is spent is right. And it's no use wishing that the bankers or other fat global corporate greedy-guts will be made to fund it, because that is never going to happen. Even the most idealist of early communists thought that everyone who was able to do so should work.

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You could also make a rule that only people of British descent (as in descended from the native stock who have been here for centuries) got the Citizen's Income.

We're constantly told immigrants are here to finance our pensions and benefits - although I think it works the other way round in most cases. But in any case, if they're here to support us - let's run with that concept - and only give ourselves the CI. That would be cheaper.

Do you do kid's parties? Why not just say you get it from 18 or after 18 years residence, whichever is the longest period?

I wonder how far we'd have to dig back into your ancestry before finding something nasty in the woodpile...

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Anyone who thinks this might actually happen is in cloud-cuckoo land. I think it has begun to dawn even on Eurocrats who have been so used to gaily squandering vast amounts of other people's money that the traditional models of Western European benefits as they stand are unsustainable. We are all now having to compete with countries where if benefits exist at all, they are far less generous. This was not the case when those benefits systems were first introduced.

It's not a question of increased generosity. At the moment the state is extremely generous to landowners and stingy to ordinary people. The only reason land has any value at all is because the state created, allocated and enforced exclusive private ownership of land. A citizen's income funded by a land value tax is just a reallocation of this huge state-backed generosity away from a tiny minority and onto the population as a whole.

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The poster who said money has to be earned before it is spent is right.

Hypothetically, what do you do as a society if robots handle all production?

We are at a stage of technology where 100% of the production can be accomplished by <100% of the available workforce. What is the solution? Infinite, never-ending growth, or alternative ways to balance production and demand?

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The poster who said money has to be earned before it is spent is right.

The wealthy love the fact that peasants believe the only way to earn money is to slog your guts out for wages. People who own significant assets know differently.

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It's not a question of increased generosity. At the moment the state is extremely generous to landowners and stingy to ordinary people. The only reason land has any value at all is because the state created, allocated and enforced exclusive private ownership of land. A citizen's income funded by a land value tax is just a reallocation of this huge state-backed generosity away from a tiny minority and onto the population as a whole.

Exactly, where will the money come from? Is the only couner argument butIt's already there in front of our noses, always has been too.

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We are all now having to compete with countries where if benefits exist at all, they are far less generous.

A citizen's income funded by a land value tax could actually make UK labour more competitive by removing the need for a minimum wage and eliminating the tapering of benefits which discourages people on low wages from working more than the minimum hours required to qualify for benefits.

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Exactly, where will the money come from? Is the only couner argument butIt's already there in front of our noses, always has been too.

Money comes from a printing press or a computer. The real question is how do we balance production with demand without creating the disincentives and resentments of our current welfare system (which is a form of CI, but with all the good bits taken out).

Edited by tomandlu

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The wealthy love the fact that peasants believe the only way to earn money is to slog your guts out for wages. People who own significant assets know differently.

Yes, of course, but there have always, always, been the few who can live off assets, and the vast multitudes who have to work. And all the wishing and reasoning in the world is not going to change that. Not so long ago it was work or starve - at least we have moved on just fraction since then.

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Median net UK household income is £564/wk https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/median-households-net-earnings-by-household-type-in-the-uk-201112 so assuming most households include two working age adults (agreed this is a slap dash assumption but given the number of working age kids still stuck at home with parents it should probably come out in the wash) median net income per adult would be somewhere in the region of £282/wk and a citizen's income at 60% of that would be around £169/wk. This doesn't seem too outlandish as long as other welfare benefits were removed and a universal CI applied instead.

Pension guarantee credit is currently set at £145.40/wk (for single people) or £222.05 (for couples). It's a sort of age-based CI (no contributions required). I've previously suggested this should be the CI level.

Q

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