Britain Isn't Eating: Duncan Smith's Fury As Church's Advert Campaign Says That Benefit Cuts Are Forcing Poor To Use Food Banks

[Executive Sadman]

During my STR spell I had neighbours (and socialised with people) who were in receipt of charitable help. Basically live revolves about ensuring the cigarette and alcohol money is there, that even included one bloke using a charitable donation for his flat redecoration entirely on cigarettes, the redecoration never get done.

If anything is responsible for impoverishing the poor it is not the cost of food but the excise duty exacted on them.

There is a problem with healthy food costing a lot of money, an apple can be the same price as a packet of biscuits. That is what food banks should be concentrating on, nutrition. Nobody is starving.

yes, the food stamp argument is a bit of a red herring. You get cashback on those things and can buy petrol, videogames, whatever.

Its basically a credit line to Wal-mart from the US.GOV...as despicable a program as our 'landlord housing benefit'. Nothing to do whatsoever with nutrition.

[gf3]

Well there seems to be two possibility's here.

either there is a genuine need for food banks.

or the people operating the food banks are so stupid that they are having the wool pulled over their eyes time and time again and are even growing the number of food bank at a rate of knots because they have been so suckered by the people on benefits.

Personally I would take the judgement of people working in food banks every day over that of people that know nothing about it.

[Errol]

If people in Britain are starving, then how exactly is it that no one dies of starvation in America where benefits levels are almost non-existent in comparison to the UK?

55 million or thereabouts on foodstamps in America. Record numbers and still rising.

[alexw]

Quite. The reality is, food banks are used because they're there. They're used more than they used to be because there are more of them, and they're more publicised.

The requiring referral is easy to game - it's not as though a GP is going to refuse a mother who turns on the waterworks and says her children are hungry - where else can you do half the week's shop for under ten minute's effort? The idea that people don't have the few £ a week necessary to eat when they somehow manage to prioritise everything else under the sun is simply comic.

Then explain why the report that IDS commissioned into food bank usage has been suppressed. If it's as you say then they'd be shouting about it from the rooftops, yes?

[Liquid Goldfish]

Quite. The reality is, food banks are used because they're there.

It's the same with hospitals.

[Liquid Goldfish]

The idea that people don't have the few £ a week necessary to eat when they somehow manage to prioritise everything else under the sun is simply comic.

There was a report on Channel Five News on the use of food banks at Christmas. They interviewed a woman who said she couldn't afford to buy food because of a benefit mix up. And then, right at the end, she said it was wonderful because she could use the money she'd saved on food to spend more on Christmas presents for her children. I was quite confused by the end!

Edited December 23, 2013 by oldsport

[byron78]

If people in Britain are starving, then how exactly is it that no one dies of starvation in America where benefits levels are almost non-existent in comparison to the UK?

Aren't nearly 50 million Americans on food stamps?

[byron78]

Quite. The reality is, food banks are used because they're there. They're used more than they used to be because there are more of them, and they're more publicised.

The requiring referral is easy to game - it's not as though a GP is going to refuse a mother who turns on the waterworks and says her children are hungry - where else can you do half the week's shop for under ten minute's effort? The idea that people don't have the few £ a week necessary to eat when they somehow manage to prioritise everything else under the sun is simply comic.

You can only be referred twice I believe.

Why do you think referral is so easy btw? Personal experience? Friends with personal experience?

I only know a few people who have been referred, but ALL are down to zero hour contracts/work not paying on time and the landlord demanding rent be paid then and there with whatever they have.

It's basically a paid on the 30th (and not knowing how much you'll be paid because your zero houred and so your hours/pay fluctuates) rent due on the 20th situation.

Wages stagnant, rent up, bills up, food prices up. Something will give at the minimum wage level eventually.

No one I know who has been referred smokes, drinks, wears a tracksuit, has 12 kids, or claims benefits regularly. Some get help the weeks where there are not enough hours and the system in place to deal with this sort of benefit claim isn't up to scratch.

I'm tired of people smearing people for going hungry to be frank. It's cruel and sick and makes me embarrassed to be British. We help bankers, rent seekers, and elite land owners in this country to anything they want, but begrudge the poor a sandwich.

Edited December 23, 2013 by byron78

[winkie]

If people in Britain are starving, then how exactly is it that no one dies of starvation in America where benefits levels are almost non-existent in comparison to the UK?

This entire food bank meme is nothing more than leftist PR hot air. Offer people free food and they will take it, irrespective of whatever level of benefits are on offer. Government spending certainly creates plenty of jobs for the insiders, though, and we wouldn't want to limit that.

Only thing is if there is not enough to eat or not enough money about to buy enough to eat... Some may steal to eat, how much would that cost in resources to lock them away and other related costs that would go with it?

[byron78]

Only thing is if there is not enough to eat or not enough money about to buy enough to eat... Some may steal to eat, how much would that cost in resources to lock them away and other related costs that would go with it?

Spot on.

This will happen. Or they'll do something else equally desperate to raise money. I know I would if I had to.

[Billy soy]

There is something deliciously ironic in witnessing the fact that Hans Kammler has more commonsense and compassion than Nick Clegg and the Tories.

You're too kind 1929crash.

[wonderpup]

As far as IDS getting enraged, well its about time somebody stuck a pin in him. It isn't about what people need for him, its about what makes him look good or bad.

One can only imagine how enraged he would be if the agricultural subsidies that support his own lifestyle were ever threatened with being stopped.

[gf3]

One can only imagine how enraged he would be if the agricultural subsidies that support his own lifestyle were ever threatened with being stopped.

Can't help but think that this is why governments are pro europe. Hundreds of well paid jobs for the boys. I remember Cameron changing the rules so police commissioners didn't have to start at the bottom and work up. and I thought more jobs for the boys.

[okaycuckoo]

You can only be referred twice I believe.

Why do you think referral is so easy btw? Personal experience? Friends with personal experience?

I only know a few people who have been referred, but ALL are down to zero hour contracts/work not paying on time and the landlord demanding rent be paid then and there with whatever they have.

It's basically a paid on the 30th (and not knowing how much you'll be paid because your zero houred and so your hours/pay fluctuates) rent due on the 20th situation.

Wages stagnant, rent up, bills up, food prices up. Something will give at the minimum wage level eventually.

No one I know who has been referred smokes, drinks, wears a tracksuit, has 12 kids, or claims benefits regularly. Some get help the weeks where there are not enough hours and the system in place to deal with this sort of benefit claim isn't up to scratch.

I'm tired of people smearing people for going hungry to be frank. It's cruel and sick and makes me embarrassed to be British. We help bankers, rent seekers, and elite land owners in this country to anything they want, but begrudge the poor a sandwich.

Yeah, that defines a big chunk of the problem.

Another point to be explained away is that people are being evicted because they can't cover withdrawal of the bedroom subsidy. Strong evidence that the poor simply don't have the money, even if they try to fetch it from cutting back on cigs/booze/Wembley-stadium-sized TVs. I don't have the eviction figures, but I think they'll be a shocking read when they come out.

The bias on this forum is toward a smaller state, and I share that. But if we're to reduce state subsidies let's start with the those who need them least.

Britain - how low can you go?

[workingatthepyramid]

Yeah, sanctions are the problem. Nothing to do with an attitude that it's okay to have a 40 year working career, and yet to put £15 away in savings, so inability to eat immediately follows any problem.

Yes because everyone has high flying careers and can save money. Blame the poor mug who has been working all his life at a shit job why don't you.

Doesn't matter that he is being taxed to high heaven to pay for, among other things, the fact that like durhamborn posted 'IDS has been a complete failure at the DWP.Tax credits,LHA,HB,income support,,all still being fleeced,all seeing no reform.'

[SpectrumFX]

So a guy spends his money on cigarettes and the problem you see with this is that cigarettes are too expensive...?

No doubts at the back of your mind about the validity of spending ones limited resources on cigarettes? Not a glimmer of the concept of personal responsibility and decisions equalling consequences...?

Cigarettes in and of themselves are extremely cheap. They are, after all, only dried leaves and paper.

I did all the maths in this thread http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=195257&pid=1102433867&st=45entry1102433867

Cigarettes are only expensive because of the tax.

20 Marlboro lights @ £7.98 are £6.17 tax and only £1.81 for the fags.

On those prices a 20 a day smoker is paying tax of £43.19 a week, that's £2,246 a year, which is not far off 10% of the average wage.

So we've priced the poor out of smoking (for their own good) and now are attacking the very poor that still smoke for being amoral because we've taken all their money.

Here's some more maths to ponder.

Someone on minimum wage who works 40 hours a week would be on a gross wage of 6.31*40*4.33*12 = £13,115 per annum.

On that figure their income tax and NI is a total of £1,445 per annum.

For our example of a 20 a day smoker given above that would mean his fag tax is £801, or 55% higher than his employment related taxes, and that the fag tax takes up 19% of his £11,670 net income.

If he smokes 50 a day that's half his net income gone in tax on cigarettes.

My grandfather used to smoke 60 a day. A minimum wage employee who did that now would be spending £6738 a year, which is 58% of their net income on tax on their cigarettes.

Edit to add: looking again at the figures. It appears we can apply a simple rule of thumb that applies at current minimum wage and tax rates.

Broadly speaking if you work full time on minimum wage each extra cigarette you smoke per day is an extra 1% of your net income paid in tax.

Edit: Posts added in to save people having to follow the link.

Edited December 23, 2013 by SpectrumFX

[sikejsudjek]

My wife is a director of a food bank and I have volunteered and worked in one. For the record I'm not a 'leftie' I voted Tory at the last election and run a small business. I do not receive any benefits myself and am lucky enough to have paid off a mortgage. (Hopefully that will destroy at least one poster's stereotype of volunteers...). Some of the volunteers I work with are businessmen, some church people, some doing volunteering days from banks, some I guess probably are 'lefties' although I haven't met any. Some are unemployed themselves and have volunteered to do something useful rather than sit at home on benefits. I don't meet many airmchair bigots, but I guess they'd rather sit at home.

I saw no fat people queuing to receive food today. No chav smoking layabouts either. Some are middle class, some have been repossessed. Some made redundant.

At a rough guess around half using it are in paid employment. Many of the problems are due to benefits not being paid on time, or stopping suddenly. This is really due to the incompetence of the system IDS has created. IDS does not strike me as the brightest bulb in the batch when it comes to politics, and trying to deflect blame to food banks, rather than his own poor implementation of benefit changes does him no credit. Nor does suppressing reports that indicate as much, and then claiming that there is no evidence that benefit changes are to blame. Well there isn't going to be evidence, if you won't publish it. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

Food banks aren't used more just because there are more of them. The referral system is the same. It is not a simple supply and demand relationship. There may be some increase due to the rise in outlets, but it is also true that there are more people finding themselves in difficult circumstances.

I was disappointed to see that the Government turned down the opportunity to have access to a EU fund that would have provided up to £22 million for the homeless and food banks. I'm not sure why. I think they decided to spend it on training the unemployed. Which is ok if there are jobs at the end of the courses...Do we just train up the work force only for robots and IT to make their jobs redundant ? How is that value for money ? There are people with significant health or learning difficulties going on courses at great expense who don't have a hope in hell of getting or holding down a job at the end of the course. Value for money ? Probably not.

I would suggest that there is real hardship out there - probably not everyone who comes, but a significant number. There are scroungers - and the system tries to identify them and stop them obtaining food. Similarly addicts. Its not perfect, but it isn't true to make a generalisation that its 'only scroungers and there is no poverty in the UK'. There are real problems out there.

With an over indebted population, wage deflation, and cost of living increases, we are likely to face things getting a lot worse. What do we do ? Shut food banks and leave some people with no food ? (I can tell you this really does happen). The suppressed report indicated rises in domestic violence. Doesn't take much of that to involve a whole load of agencies which quickly cost the tax payer a shed load more money.

There are large social changes to the viability of work occurring in the UK. I don't think politics has caught up with reality. Work doesn't always pay. High house prices and high rents don't help. Its a mess. I don't see any political party that is going fix this any time soon. So in the mean while we have a safety net. Imperfect, run by volunteers, hated by IDS, and keeping some people eating that otherwise might not.

Edited December 23, 2013 by sikejsudjek

[wonderpup]

I used to wonder why some women were so hostile to other women who suffer rape and seemed to want to blame the victim- I finally came to the conclusion that they wanted to believe that it was the victims fault because that way they could pretend to themselves that this terrible thing would never happen to them because they would always be smarter/more careful/more in control than those other women.

I feel a similar dynamic often lies behind the apparent hostility to those who use food banks- it scares people to think that such a thing might happen to themselves- so they blame the victim allowing them to take comfort in the belief that they will always be too smart/careful and in control to allow such a thing to happen to themselves.

Only when they find themselves in that dire situation do they realize the fallacy in their thinking- bad things can and do happen to perfectly responsible and careful people.

[the gardener]

I used to wonder why some women were so hostile to other women who suffer rape and seemed to want to blame the victim- I finally came to the conclusion that they wanted to believe that it was the victims fault because that way they could pretend to themselves that this terrible thing would never happen to them because they would always be smarter/more careful/more in control than those other women.

I feel a similar dynamic often lies behind the apparent hostility to those who use food banks- it scares people to think that such a thing might happen to themselves- so they blame the victim allowing them to take comfort in the belief that they will always be too smart/careful and in control to allow such a thing to happen to themselves.

Only when they find themselves in that dire situation do they realize the fallacy in their thinking- bad things can and do happen to perfectly responsible and careful people.

A good bit of truth in that.

Edited December 23, 2013 by the gardener

[okaycuckoo]

I used to wonder why some women were so hostile to other women who suffer rape and seemed to want to blame the victim- I finally came to the conclusion that they wanted to believe that it was the victims fault because that way they could pretend to themselves that this terrible thing would never happen to them because they would always be smarter/more careful/more in control than those other women.

I feel a similar dynamic often lies behind the apparent hostility to those who use food banks- it scares people to think that such a thing might happen to themselves- so they blame the victim allowing them to take comfort in the belief that they will always be too smart/careful and in control to allow such a thing to happen to themselves.

Only when they find themselves in that dire situation do they realize the fallacy in their thinking- bad things can and do happen to perfectly responsible and careful people.

Good angle - Just World fallacy:

The just-world hypothesis or just-world fallacy is the cognitive bias (or assumption) that a person's actions always bring morally fair and fitting consequences to that person, so that all noble actions are eventually rewarded and all evil actions are eventually punished. In other words, the just-world hypothesis is the tendency to attribute consequences to—or expect consequences as the result of—a universal force that restores moral balance. The fallacy is that this implies (often unintentionally) the existence of cosmic justice, desert, stability, or order, and may also serve to rationalize people's misfortune on the grounds that they deserve it.

[pig]

I used to wonder why some women were so hostile to other women who suffer rape and seemed to want to blame the victim- I finally came to the conclusion that they wanted to believe that it was the victims fault because that way they could pretend to themselves that this terrible thing would never happen to them because they would always be smarter/more careful/more in control than those other women.

I feel a similar dynamic often lies behind the apparent hostility to those who use food banks- it scares people to think that such a thing might happen to themselves- so they blame the victim allowing them to take comfort in the belief that they will always be too smart/careful and in control to allow such a thing to happen to themselves.

Only when they find themselves in that dire situation do they realize the fallacy in their thinking- bad things can and do happen to perfectly responsible and careful people.

Or they could just exercise some common sense.

But impressive that you seem to have nailed the entire Conservative Party in a paragraph or two.

[bristolhunter]

It's the same with hospitals.

I'm honestly unclear if this was meant to be serious or not. It's quite close, but not dead on, to reality - GPs would be a much better comparison. Most people who go to a GP won't die then and there should they not. They have alternatives (hospitals, walk-in centres, health visitors). It provides a service that improves people's lives and makes them easier, but isn't actually a necessity.

GPs surgeries fill almost exactly the same logical position as food banks.

[bristolhunter]

Yes because everyone has high flying careers and can save money. Blame the poor mug who has been working all his life at a shit job why don't you.

Doesn't matter that he is being taxed to high heaven to pay for, among other things, the fact that like durhamborn posted 'IDS has been a complete failure at the DWP.Tax credits,LHA,HB,income support,,all still being fleeced,all seeing no reform.'

I'd certainly welcome lower taxes, and the raised personal threshold is a great thing this government has done, reducing the tax burden on the poorest.

Doesn't alter that in the model given, a person had been working for four decades, and had for whatever reason not put aside anything. Anything. Even a penny a day would give that person £150 as a cushion to last out errors, mistakes, etc. "high flying careers" are not necessary to have a basic, low level emergency reserve with which to buy ittle things like FOOD.

[credo]

I took a friend to a food bank as his benefits were stopped and he was pretty much forced to live on nothing. He was eating hobnobs and custard creams for breakfast.

Fortunately he is a good cook so knows how to make food last.

Tue food bank was great but it's a shame they don't help to improve peoples cooking skills, instead they mainly give out tins.

Even though the food bank stuff was only meant to last 5 days it ended up lasting my friend for almost a month as he bought a 10kg sack of potatoes for 3 pounds and just Lt made curries out of everything.

[MrPin]

I took a friend to a food bank as his benefits were stopped and he was pretty much forced to live on nothing. He was eating hobnobs and custard creams for breakfast.

Fortunately he is a good cook so knows how to make food last.

Tue food bank was great but it's a shame they don't help to improve peoples cooking skills, instead they mainly give out tins.

Even though the food bank stuff was only meant to last 5 days it ended up lasting my friend for almost a month as he bought a 10kg sack of potatoes for 3 pounds and just Lt made curries out of everything.

This is a sad story for Christmas Day 2013! He sounds like a "survivor! I've been unemployed more times than I care to mention, and it is always a crap experience!