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Catch22

Al Capone Style Of Government In Iraq

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BBC News

Gunmen kill Iraqi tribal chief

Gunmen have shot dead a prominent Sunni Arab tribal chief, his three sons and a son-in-law as they slept in their home in Baghdad, police say.

Khadim Sarhid Hemaiyem was the leader of the Batta tribe, one of the largest tribes in the area north of Baghdad.

Officials said gunmen dressed in Iraqi army uniforms broke into his house and opened fire with automatic weapons.

The killings appear to be the latest in a series of attacks by death squads targeting Sunni Arab leaders in Iraq.

The gunmen arrived at the house in Baghdad's south-eastern al-Hurriya district at 0400 (0100 GMT) in 10 armoured cars similar to those used by Iraqi security services.

A spokesman for the Iraqi police said that its forces were not involved in the killing and that it was likely to have been militants in disguise.

"Surely, they are outlaw insurgents. As for the military uniform, they can be bought from many shops in Baghdad," Maj Falah al-Mohammedawi said.

"Also, we have several police and army vehicles stolen and they can be used in the raids."

Mr Hemaiyem's brother told the Associated Press that his family had been attacked before.

"His eldest son was assassinated one month ago in the Taji area of northern Baghdad, when unidentified men shot and killed him," he said.

Comment:

I watched Dispatches the other night, the reporter said the US and UK forces had handed over the role of security to the hard line Islamist militia's. That way less attacks on our forces take place, because they [the militia's] are to busy "removing" the opposition to bother about killing our lads so often. Of course the women now have to dress like they did in Afghanistan under the Taliban. The reporter reckons its the biggest foriegn policy distaster since appeasing Hitler at Munich. So our soldiers died for an Alcapone style set up in Iraq, I bet their families feel it was a price worth paying.

And its nice to know we here at home have become targets for terrorists and Billions of Pounds have been diverted to the war just to put a load of hard line Islamists in power in Iraq..............NICE ONE TONY

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Click here for something you never get from the British media - balance.

I have long believed that, whatever its flaws, the Iraqi campaign is on the road to strategic success. Figuring out who is winning requires that you ask a deceptively simple question: which side is making better progress toward their strategic objectives?

I think the answer is very clear - the US and its allies are making progress toward their strategic objectives, and their Islamist/Baathist enemies are not.

We have removed one of the major terror-supporting states (the Saddamite regime) from the picture. We are introducing by far the most democratically accountable government into the Mideast (other than Israel), and are destabilizing the long-term prospects for neighboring dictators who, coincidentally, sponsor terror to one degree or another. We have forced the Islamists to fight in the Mideast, and as a consequence are eroding their support as they do what they do, which is attack civilians. We have badly disrupted international terrorist networks.

As for the Islamists, well, what ground have they gained toward their stated goals of a pan-Arab caliphate, the eradication of Israel, the acquisition of WMDs, or the destabilization of the West?

I don't see any real gains on their side, and I see real progress on ours. Sure, progress has come at a cost, but only the most naive (or those with ulterior motives) would believe that we could neuter the Islamist threat without any missteps or losses.

Those on the front lines think we are winning a fight worth fighting. It is those in the perfumed salons who don't think we are winning, and who don't think the game is worth the candle. I know who I believe.

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................................

Those on the front lines think we are winning a fight worth fighting. It is those in the perfumed salons who don't think we are winning, and who don't think the game is worth the candle. I know who I believe.

Jeez what aload of ...... obviously you don't know your Middle Eastern history. Here be my guest Middle East realities And learn from somebody well qualified in Middle Eastern politics, Mark Bruzonzky oh and incidently he just so happens to be Jewish.

Who is Mark Bruzonsky

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Jeez what aload of ...... obviously you don't know your Middle Eastern history. Here be my guest Middle East realities And learn from somebody well qualified in Middle Eastern politics, Mark Bruzonzky oh and incidently he just so happens to be Jewish.

Who is Mark Bruzonsky

I'd pretty much already guessed that your understanding of the world came from some randomly selected crackpot website. But thanks for confirming it.

My original point, though, which still stands, and which you seem to agree with is that the media are not a reliable source of information on Iraq.

That website says

There are many sites on the Internet well-financed by business interests, indirectly by governments, oftentimes by public relations groups masquerading as "Institutes" or "Think-Tanks."

I agree and in Britain anyway, virtually all were against the war from day one, and this has affected their coverage.

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I'd pretty much already guessed that your understanding of the world came from some randomly selected crackpot website. But thanks for confirming it.

As against in your case being brain washed by a bought and paid for corporate media , you really are a joke, I dare say you have a Doctorate in World Politics from the Fox News Channel. You don't even recognise historical facts when the are there to be verified. Here is another site [for your education] that records historical facts regards the slaughter of millions of innocent civillians in their own countries by invading Democracies.Why the USA

To be honest you are not worth the effort of communicating with. But I'll leave you with some simple logic which will nodoubt be way over your head. You will usually find those that do the invading with a military machine designed to slaughter on an industrial scale, are the real terrorists in the world.

There are more learned people than you who would support that view, heres a few quotes from some learned people who will be rememberd long after your one brain cell has given up the ghost.

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the Military Industrial Complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist" --President Eisenhower Farewell Address, Jan. 17, 1961

"The United States is not nearly so concerned that its acts be kept secret from its intended victims as it is that the American people not know of them." --U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark

"I believe that if we had and would keep our dirty, bloody, dollar soaked fingers out of the business of these [nations so full of depressed, exploited people, they will arrive at a solution of their own. And if unfortunately their revolution must be of the violent type because the "haves" refuse to share with the "have-nots" by any peaceful method, at least what they get will be their own, and not the American style, which they don't want and above all don't want crammed down their throats by Americans." --General David Sharp [Former United States Marine Commandant 1966]

"I never would have agreed to the formulation of the Central Intelligence Agency back in '47, if I had known it would become the American Gestapo. " -- Harry S Truman (1961)

"The greatest crime since World War II has been U.S. foreign policy." --Ramsey Clark [Former U.S. Attorney General under President Johnson]

"Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our time is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the 'Freedom Party', a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine." -- Albert Einstein 1948

Comment:

The USA's refusal to facilitate a "just settlement" of the Israeli/Palestinian problem by the USA using its VETO to defeat resolutions supported by the vast majority of the member states of the United Nations, demanding Israel give back the illegaly occupied territories. Is the root cause of the terrorism we are experiencing today. It bred well founded hostility and hatred on the Arab Street towards the USA, ending in the infamous attack of the World Trade Centre.

That was the trigger that those who profit from the endeavors of the "Industrial Military Complex" had been waiting for to enable them to implement the first part of fulfilling the ideals laid out in the document "Project for the New American Century" drawn up by leading lights affiliated to the Bush Administration.

Saddam was suckered into attacking Kuwait

A long-standing territorial dispute led to the invasion of Kuwait in 1990. Iraq accused Kuwait of violating the Iraqi border to secure oil resources, and demanded that its debt repayments should be waived. Direct negotiations began in July 1990, but they soon failed. Saddam Hussein had an emergency meeting with April Glaspie, the United States Ambassador to Iraq, on July 25, 1990, airing his concerns but stating his intention to continue talks. April Glaspie informed Saddam that the United States had no interest in Iraq/Kuwait border disputes.

But had to wait untill GW was in office to finish the job. And untill that time came around US and UK forces implimented a 12 year blockade on Iraq responsible for killing half a million children, yes half a million children died in our name. And at the same time ensuring that Iraq would be on its knees prior to the invasion when the Bush's were back in control of the White House.

In 1996, she [Albright] made highly controversial remarks in an interview with Leslie Stahl on CBS's Sixty Minutes. Asked by Stahl with regards to effect of sanctions against Iraq: "We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?" Albright replied: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price -- we think the price is worth it." [1]. When asked about this remark in 2005 she said "I never should have made it, it was stupid", but she still supported the concept of tailored sanctions Source

And what was THE JOB, it was getting world opinon to sanction a big US military presence sat squat on top of the worlds biggest known oil reserves.

So how do the leaders of the Free World, Bush and Blair improve this world of ours? Imprisonment for years on end without sight of a judge or a trial. Torture of civilians by the occuping State in the very prison Saddam Hussain[ex CIA agent] used. Prisoners sent to "client" States to undergo torture, called in intelligence parlance "rendering" The same term used to treat animal skins in a tannery. And our government deems such evidence obtained under torture should be admissable in British Law Courts.

Journalists threatend with imprisonment under the Official Secrets Act, if leaks about Bush wanting to bomb the headquarters of a legitimate News organisationin, not even situated in Iraq. The fact is never have so many journalists been killed by US fire in any other conflict in History.

Indeed the respected war corrospondent Kate Adie warned prior to the Iraq war that the US Administration threatened to kill journalists not reporting under their controlread the transcripts of what she told Irish radio listeners about threats made by US military to target journalists in Iraq.

Surley the above are the actions of a Totalitarian Regime akin to North Korea, not the actions of the worlds self proclaimed leaders of the Free World.

This Is the Reality that evades the likes of zuzuspetals and his ilk because his own deep seated prejudices prevent him from recognising historical facts. And hence that is why we will forever live in a climate of fear and hate, because that way we are easier to manipulate.

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zuzuspetals - care to explain how Saddam was "one of the major terror-supporting states". We all know he wasn't the nicest of people, but there's no evidence that he supported 'terrorism', at least not so far as I understand that word.

If anything, as is becoming clearer by the day, the invasion of Iraq has created a whole new generation of Jihad-inspired insurgents who are still streaming into Iraq from all sides.

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Catch22, Linking to yet more crackpot websites isn’t really going to cut it. The rest of your post consists of repetitions of the usual widely believed nonsense stories by those with an agenda that they want you to follow.

A mistake you are making is that many of those links are American and talk about corporate media. The situation is not the same in the UK. Which media parrot mindless pro American propaganda in the UK? I can’t quite remember being brainwashed by all those BBC/Channel 4 documentaries supporting Bush. Your position is basically the default herd like mentality, aligning yourself with a prevailing viewpoint and allow others to think of you as "informed", simply by using a few key phrases such as "Bush is the real terrorist" or " "America is to blame for all these problems", etc. You are part of the corporate and highly profitable merry go round of Michael Moore, Morgan Spurlock, Noam Chomsky, blah, blah, blah.

My local Waterstones has shelves groaning under the weight of “Hegemony or Survival“ and similar books. For me, the media brainwashing is all from the same direction.

My original point remains, Iraqis are far more optimistic about the future of their country than virtually everyone in the West. To me you are merely parroting the standard BBC line, supplementing that by reading sites with a clear political agenda. I don’t want chattering class essays that I can quote to my friends to look clever I want facts and I’ll make my own mind up.

I question the accuracy of the news coming out of Iraq, and your response is to post 2 links, one anti-Israeli and one anti-US plus you cut and paste a few quotes, no doubt from yet another website that conveniently puts a load of quotes together so you don’t need to think for yourself. Are you really claiming that the British media mindlessly supports Bush? People have thrown any kind of critical thinking away , they start off with hatred of the US, and then try to twist facts to fit that.

It's very slowly dawning on me that it isn't worth trying to have a sensible discussion with people who have such a distorted worldview.

And hence that is why we will forever live in a climate of fear and hate, because that way we are easier to manipulate.[\quote]

Well, you are easy to manipulate, certainly. A couple of Pilger documentaries, the occasional George Monbiot column, et voila, you’ve constructed your very own world of hate, fear and paranoia in your own mind.

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zuzuspetals , I would like to read your answer to the question put by Noddage , please .

"zuzuspetals - care to explain how Saddam was "one of the major terror-supporting states". We all know he wasn't the nicest of people, but there's no evidence that he supported 'terrorism', at least not so far as I understand that word."

Thank you

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Thanks *****an, but I don't think there'll be a reply.

It's a proven fact (so far as it can be) that Saddam had no links with international terrorism. Isn't it? . . . Zuzuapetals?

The fact that Z says: "My original point, though, which still stands, and which you seem to agree with is that the media are not a reliable source of information on Iraq," - while quoting from the Los Angeles Times to back up his views - says it all really.

Also: " . . . and in Britain anyway, virtually all [the media, I assume] were against the war from day one, and this has affected their coverage," is an astonishing statement. As far as I remember the only papers "against the war from day one" were the Mirror, Guardian and, arguably, the Independent. No surprises there, then. As for the BBC, I have heard people contend from both ends of the argument that it showed bias against their views.

Again, I quote: "It's very slowly dawning on me that it isn't worth trying to have a sensible discussion with people who have such a distorted worldview."

Quite.

Edit - I didn't censor your name, those stars appeared by themselves.

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I didn't censor your name, those stars appeared by themselves.

I know :) , it's funny how the first "name" of the Native American Great Spirit "*****an Tankan" has turned into a swear word . Personally I think the American red knecks must have seen a group of NA praying to Great Spirit (probably after a massacre like Sand Creek or Wounded Knee) so called them *****ers . My theory B)

America has a history of murdering innocent people (usually unarmed old people , women and children) and then covering it up . My Lai in Vietnam, No Gun Ri in Korea , the Panama invasion . Even in the "Black Hawk down" farce they had to be bailed out by the U.N. as they decided to "do their own thang" and try a snatch and grab . How many hundreds did they kill then ???

They just cannot be trusted .

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Saddam Hussein showed no reluctance to support terrorism per se during his career. The fact that he gave money to the families of Palestinian suicide terrorists and had a close working relationship with the PLO was well known, and something he admitted. The Iraqi regime maintained a terrorist training camp at Salman Pak near Baghdad where foreign terrorists were instructed in methods of taking over commercial aircraft using weapons no more sophisticated than knives (interesting thought that). Saddam also harbored Abu Nidal and other members of his international terror organization (ANO) in Baghdad. Abu Nidal died under suspicious circumstances in Baghdad in August 2002, an apparent multiple gunshot suicide. Abd-al-Rahman Isa, ANO's second in command based in Amman, Jordan, was kidnapped September 11, 2002, and has not been heard from since. Coalition forces did recently apprehend ANO member Khala Khadr al-Salahat, the man who reputedly made the bomb for the Libyans that brought down Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. He was hiding out in Baghdad. Another bomb maker, Abdul Rahman Yasin, was also a Baghdad resident. He was one of the conspirators in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing who had fled there after being detained briefly by the FBI. Recent document finds in Tikrit show that Iraq supplied Yasin with both money and sanctuary. The 1993 WTC attack was masterminded by Yasin's associate Ramzi Yousef, who received financial support from al Qaeda through Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, a key 9/11 planner.

There is also the case of Abu Zubayr, an officer in Saddam's secret police who was also the ringleader of an al Qaeda cell in Morocco. He attended the September 5, 2001 meeting in Spain with other al Qaeda operatives, including Ramzi Bin-al-Shibh, the 9/11 financial chief. Abu Zubayr was apprehended in May, 2002, while putting together a plot to mount suicide attacks on U.S. ships passing through the straits of Gibraltar. He has allegedly since stated that Iraq trained and supplied chemical weapons to al Qaeda. In the fall of 2001 al Qaeda refugees from Afghanistan took refuge in northern Iraq until they were driven out by Coalition forces, and Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, an al Qaeda terrorist active in Europe and North Africa, fled from Baghdad during Operation Iraqi Freedom. He has reportedly been sent back to Iraq to coordinate al Qaeda activities there.

Iraq made direct payments to the Philippine-based al Qaeda-affiliated Abu Sayyaf group. Hamsiraji Sali, an Abu Sayyaf leader on the U.S. most-wanted terrorist list, stated that his gang received about one million pesos (around $20,000) each year from Iraq, for chemicals to make bombs. The link was substantiated immediately after a bombing in Zamboanga City in October 2002 (in which three people were killed including an American Green Beret), when Abu Sayyaf leaders called up the deputy secretary of the Iraqi embassy in Manila, Husham Hussain. Six days later, the cell phone used to call Hussain was employed as the timer on a bomb set to go off near the Philippine military's Southern Command headquarters. Fortunately, the bomb failed to detonate, and the phone yielded various contact numbers, including Hussain's and Sali's. This evidence, coupled with other intelligence the Philippine government would not release, led to Hussain's expulsion in February 2003. In March, ten Iraqi nationals, some with direct links to al Qaeda, were rounded up in the Philippines and deported as undesirable aliens. In addition, two more consulate officials were expelled for spying.

The most intriguing potential link is reflected in documents found by Toronto Star reporter Mitch Potter in Baghdad in April, 2003. The documents detail direct links between al Qaeda and Saddam's regime dating back at least to 1998, and mention Osama bin Laden by name. The find supports an October 2001 report by William Safire that noted, among other things, a 1998 meeting in Baghdad between al Qaeda #2 Ayman al Zawahiri and Saddam's vice president, Taha Yasin Ramadan. Other reports have alleged bin Laden himself traveled to Iraq around that time, or at least planned to. Former Iraqi ambassador to Turkey, Farouk Hijazi, now in custody, allegedly met with bin Laden before the 9/11 attacks.

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In the fall of 2001 al Qaeda refugees from Afghanistan took refuge in northern Iraq until they were driven out by Coalition forces

Cut and pasted from where ? :lol:

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If you guys are going to play with zuzuspetals, you need some boots.

An early Christmas present for you *****an!

And one for you noddage!

shit_kickers.jpg

post-2641-1132855345_thumb.jpg

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If you guys are going to play with zuzuspetals, you need some boots.

An early Christmas present for you *****an!

And one for you noddage!

shit_kickers.jpg

Many thanks .

Bit small though . Can I swop them for a pair of size 10 Magnum's ?

Editted cos I can't speel proper .

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It's very slowly dawning on me that it isn't worth trying to have a sensible discussion with people who have such a distorted worldview.

That’s rich coming from you Zusu; your writing style exposes you for what you are. Indeed anybody who cares to click on your profile and pull up your posts can see for themselves that you’re an apologist for all that is wrong with the grubby corrupt Foreign Policies of the USA and the UK.

I would rather pay attention to warnings from history from the likes of Albert Einstien, President Eisenhower, President Harry S Truman, US Attorney General Ramsey Clark et al

Indeed I could put up verifiable documented links from many many more credible people who have held high positions within US Administrations or their Foreign Diplomatic Service and or Intelligence Services. Where as you just spout the usual crap posted on Right Wing Freeper sites how about providing some links.

I just love this one

The most intriguing potential link is reflected in documents found by Toronto Star reporter Mitch Potter in Baghdad in April, 2003. The documents detail direct links between al Qaeda and Saddam's regime dating back at least to 1998, and mention Osama bin Laden by name.
The intelligence services finds Jack Sh@t after years of trying.........but hey Mitch comes up with the real deal in downtown Bagdhad

Why is it you attempt to label websites Anti Israeli or Anti American because they provide document verifiable historical facts? MER is a gold mine of the real history of the Middle East, and its main founder is an American of Jewish ancestry of impeccable learning and knowledge “He was Washington Representative of The World Jewish Congress from 1977 to 1984, and Special Assistant to Philip M. Klutznick (who was uniquely President of both B'nai B'rith International and the World Jewish Congress, as well as U.S. Secretary of Commerce) for over a decade.”

And anybody reading the background of the co-founders of the Kryss Tal website can see they are normal well traveled and educated people. And nor is there evidence they are Anti American, logging links to sources like the UN regarding historical facts does not make one Anti American or Anti Israeli.

Of course Kryss Kavasiavriades is Greek, and yes the US supported the dictatorship that once grab power in Greece the mother of democracy in the world., but does that mean by definition he must be Anti A.merican?

But let’s be honest US Foreign Policy post WW2 has been built around the US supporting dictatorial regimes that denied people under their control their basic human rights. Throughout the Middle and Far East, South America anywere you find a dictatorship nine times out of ten it has been bankrolled and armed by the USA. Indeed Saddam was one such dictator, and any WMD he once had were supplied to him by the USA to kill Iranian Arabs because it suited US Foreign Policy. They supported him when he slaughtered Kurds, they supported him when he slaughtered Shia Arabs, they supported Turkey when they also slaughtered their Kurdish population.

I myself have family, a sister, cousins and the like who are American citizens, I have American friends who visit, but I suppose you label me as being Anti American also. That’s the only defense of your position you have, which in turn only proves how indefensible you tainted view is.

I admit I am Anti US and UK Foreign Policy and I'm undeniablely Anti Bush and Blair, there are you happy now.

I think Albert Einstein summed it nicely

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."

But the plus side of debating with you, is that it may promotes interest in what is done in our names. I would rather people distrusted every view point I hold, and research the subject for themselves if only in an attempt to shoot me down.

So to that end here are some links to websites for you to label Anti American yada yada yada......so that will be every media site in the world then. World Media

Edit: World Media link fixed

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Many thanks .

Bit small though . Can I swop them for a pair of size 10 Magnum's ?

Editted cos I can't speel proper .

If you want.

I wouldn't if I were you. Those boots are called poo kickers. Well not really poo, but the site edits the word I want to use.

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Hats off to you Z - that was as good a summary of the allegations against Saddam's regime as I have ever heard. Did you write it? if not, could you let me know where it was from?

I wish I had time to go through it and check it more closely (I'm at work). A couple of things jump off the page though:

- "In the fall of 2001 al Qaeda refugees from Afghanistan took refuge in northern Iraq until they were driven out by Coalition forces" wasn't northern Iraq out of bounds to Saddam at this point?

- "The fact that he gave money to the families of Palestinian suicide terrorists and had a close working relationship with the PLO was well known" I think every Middle Eastern leader has done the same, including many who are still our allies.

- The Mitch Potter 'discoveries': these are highly dubious, as I'm sure you know.

But, as I said, fair play to you Z, good to see your views so well backed up - sorry I made the assumption that you wouldn't bother. I hope somebody with more time that me can have a closer look at the points you made, there's a fair few that should be challenged.

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- "The fact that he gave money to the families of Palestinian suicide terrorists and had a close working relationship with the PLO was well known" I think every Middle Eastern leader has done the same, including many who are still our allies.

Palestinian suicide bombers and the PLO, are considered by the West as terrorists. However the Palestinians and for the most part the wider Arab/ Muslim community consider them to be resistance fighters engaged in a war against the illegal occupation [as defined by the UN Charter] of Palestine.

However when uniformed personal from democratic states indiscriminately target civillians with powerful weapons whilst conducting illegal wars or occupation [as defined by international law and the UN charter] It is consder by some to be acceptable practice. The hypocrisy of that viewpoint is the very fact WHY we have as defined by many in the West "World Terrorism"

Those who consider their way of life, their country, their property, their resources be they water or oil, their very existance threatened by those who invade their lands. And having no recourse to justice via the UN because of the misuse of the US Veto. Are left with nothing other than subjugation or extinction as a people, or to resist by whatever means they have. And that for the most part is why they give their lives by becoming suicide bombers. If they had cruise missiles, F16 war planes, they would use them, of course if they did have them I dare say they would not be occupied in the first place.

We cannot have it both ways, the organisation drawn upon to facilate a just world order [ the UN] albeit fatally flaw at conception by use of the Veto. Cannot be ignored at will or be used as a rubber stamp by those possesing military might to sanction acts of aggresion to secure resources and undertake regime change. And the said abusers still maintain the moral high ground.

As Harold Pinter succinctly put it " We are not the Doctors, We are the Disease"

So in a real sense the hypocrcy of the USA/UK/Israel states makes Zuzus above statement its self nonsensical.

And as for the rest of his statements its for him to put up links to verify the likely validity of said accusations.

And dare I say if oppressed peoples when confronted with the might of the greatest military machine the world has ever known. Continue to fight in the rubble of their destroyed lands with nothing more than AK47's rocket propelled grenade launchers and suicide bombs. Thats just the kind of opposition the western aggressor states relish to keep alive the "Boggy Man" of their own making "World Terrorism" That way they maintain the hatreds of race and religious ignorance by which they divide and rule us.

If you strip away the reasons for living, you by default create only reasons for dieing.

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Palestinian suicide bombers and the PLO, are considered by the West as terrorists. However the Palestinians and for the most part the wider Arab/ Muslim community consider them to be resistance fighters engaged in a war against the illegal occupation [as defined by the UN Charter] of Palestine.

Those who consider their way of life, their country, their property, their resources be they water or oil, their very existance threatened by those who invade their lands. And having no recourse to justice via the UN because of the misuse of the US Veto. Are left with nothing other than subjugation or extinction as a people, or to resist by whatever means they have. And that for the most part is why they give their lives by becoming suicide bombers. If they had cruise missiles, F16 war planes, they would use them, of course if they did have them I dare say they would not be occupied in the first place.

Interesting, you've gone from criticism of US foreign policy to being an unabashed cheerleader for the most barbaric, medieval, completely bigoted fascists who would usurp every liberal, post enlightenment principle and freedom and plunge the region into a new dark age. The fact that there are a goodly few in the ‘peace movement’ of such vile, wicked minded people rooting for these vicious, revolting, nihilistic fascists quite openly simply boggles the mind.

Overthrowing the Taliban and Saddam was right, and the project to spread democracy and freedom to the Middle East is a noble one. Hitchens recently spoke of how the pro-war forces are on the right side of history, and I agree with that: we can think back to many episodes and wars when one side was clearly on the right side of history, even when they sometimes spilt much blood. Despite all the mistakes - and allegedly, crimes - committed by our side in Iraq, the goal is a worthy one, and future generations will see it as either noble or naive, but I don't think they'll sympathise much with the shrill hysteria, puerile sloganeering, and general bad faith of the anti-war camp. The hypocritical "moral" arguments of those who scream blue murder when America's standards slip, while averting their gaze and keeping silent when Arab tyrants commit genocide, will be easy to see through.

People like you intrigue me, Catch22. You're clearly an intelligent person, but as is often the case, it takes an intelligent person to dream up the most morally blind, conspiratorial, pig-ignorant garbage imaginable. You whinge about how dreadful the Western countries are - but would never dream of abandoning these comfortable shores forever to join with the "anti-imperialist" forces, such as your chums (from a safe distance), the Jihadists.

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Jeez Zuzus you dont half spout a lot of rhetoric

it takes an intelligent person to dream up the most morally blind, conspiratorial, pig-ignorant garbage imaginable. You whinge about how dreadful the Western countries are - but would never dream of abandoning these comfortable shores forever to join with the "anti-imperialist" forces, such as your chums (from a safe distance), the Jihadists.

But thats because thats all you have got in your arsenal, not once have you put up an argument disputing the documented historical facts I have put to you. But that's no wonder because you have at least enough savvy to realise it is pointless trying to defend the indefensible. So the usual "freeper" tatic comes into play, a diatribe of personal abuse, which quite frankly don't add up to a hill of beans.

And your "selective" quoting has not gone un noticed, of course by cutting that which followed alters the whole point of the post. Which is, how can you condone mass killing by the State when it choses to enter into an illegal war on a third world country. Yet cite suicide bombers the most worst affliction to beset humanity.

I presented the view point from the Arab angle, because it is at odds with the view point held by many in the West and hence as such there will always be an impasse. Because they don't subscribe to the view that they are the terrorists, they see themselves as the oppressed.

But to you, having the ability to understand how the other side in a conflict perceives reality, must mean...lets use a "Bushism" as you seem fond of such language....... I'm a Disciple of the Evil Doers

So why don't you cut the crap and the attempts at character assasination [water off a ducks back]

and just answer the above, answer any or every historical fact I have put to you in other posts which you steadfastly refuse to address.

Albright, Kate Adie interview, deaths of journalists, White Phosporous in Falluja, Torture in US prison camps. Innocent people held for years without charge or going before a court. Innocent people bungled into aircraft and sent to other countrys to be tortured.

Faced with all that which is being practiced by the supposed leaders of the Free World how the hell can you spout crap like this the fact that there are a goodly few in the ‘peace movement’ of such vile, wicked minded people rooting for these vicious, revolting, nihilistic fascists quite openly simply boggles the mind

You really are a joke arn't you

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And following on .........

John McCarthy who was held hostage in Lebanon, was on News Week last night. He did a piece to camara and then in the studio talking to Andrew Neil, Abbot and Portillo. He said to them, what kept it together for him whilst he was held captive and tortured was that he come from a socitey where such things could not happen. He then went on to say he just cannot believe the US and UK governments have destroyed what credability they had in denouncing crimes against humanity, yet themselves being party to such crimes.

He was disgusted, that it was highly likely that innocent people were being flown into our airports during transit by the USA Administration to places like Syria where they are tortured. And the Blair government insist confessions extracted under such torture should be admissible in British Courts!!!

So think about that next time your "Checking In" with the wife and kids going on vacation.......there could be a small plane on the apron of the airport being refuelled with a person shackled enroute to the torture chamber.......and remember when you reach your destination to stand proud and tall as you present your UK passport..............and just hope to hell your not in a country that condons and facilites the trafficking in torture victims.

Thats just pure laa laa land right ?

Well here is a link to such a case, a Syria born Canadian on holiday in Tunis with his family, he is called back to work by his firm because they need him. The plane touches down in the USA, on its wayback to Canada and that is where his nightmare begins Out Sourcing Torture

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  • 302 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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