Keep On Renting!

[Sandwiches33]

HI This is my first post but I have been reading this site for a while. It is a shining beacon in a sea of idiots!

I thought I would share some stories about not buying a house and why I am not buying a house. Over the years I have encountered all sorts of pressure but I never gave in, here are some of my reasons why.

A good few years ago I thought about it, I had money in the bank good ages and everything was good. Then it got crazy I was earning brilliant wages and my wife and I were saving 1-2k a month. Prices were rising at such a rate that we just decided to give up and spend the money on living and wait for a crash. Over the years I have had to listen to endless friends and family member drone on about it and constantly telling me how foolish I was but the shoe is one the other foot now. Regardless of statistics or charts this is now what I am seeing at ground level.

I had one family member who built there own house about thirty years ago, the bloke passed away but his wife would drone on at every family gathering about how much the house has went up in the previous months. Now a pensioner not only is the house far to big for her she lives in abject poverty struggling to pay to maintain and heat it. Of course she still believes in what it is worth but that is because she has bought into the idea of being rich and refuses to let go. A normal person would punt it cheap and downsize but she is clinging on in there freezing cold in a giant family home nobody wants to buy. At the last family event she looked broken, each month struggling to make ends meet and now the tories and cutting back on pensioners how long before she gives up and sells for a decent price to a family who can make best use of it.

I believe house prices are high because people believe they are rich and are refusing to let go the dream. There is no logic too too it, which is one of the reasons we are still "waiting" on the crash.

I was always told by my elders you should never stretch both wages for a house you can barely afford. Unfortunately many of my friends ignored this advice here is one of them. He just got married and was being pressured by his wife to buy a house, they earned decent money but completely overstretched themselves at the height of the madness. They bought a large house but one of the things people dont seem to realise is that a large house requires almost constant maintenance. Still driven by status she pushed him and he was too weak to tell her where to go. All there wages started to be consumed on "fixing" stuff and the garden alone required almost constant maintenance. Every month he was penniless and was getting more and more exhausted. Eventually he had a nervous breakdown and has never been the same since. Still for that period they did have the biggest house in the street! is a big house worth breaking your soul for?

I have loads of these....

I know someone else, her and her bloke massively overstretched themselves, she lost her job and to make up the difference she started buying and selling online to try and make up a second wage as his entire wage was consumed by the mortgage. 18hours a day she was online, every month not sure if they could make the bills the stress was incredible, her health began to deteriorate until now where her bloke was told his job is now looking dodgy. Among numerous health issues she has now started bleeding out of her eyes. Every month is a massive battle to stay afloat and I dunno how much longer itll last. All this to have a "nice" house.

I have literally hundreds of these from friends and family, I dunno when the madness stops but one thing I have noticed is that people are a lot less smug now. Every person I know is feeling the affect of a job loss or potential job loss. I have not escaped and a few times lost my job but I was never beholden to a large mortgage so I would just pack up a transit and move to the next job. The advantage of this being you see lots of new places and get into new adventures. Yes I have kids and they are a lot more resilient than adults and if we decide to move on they just see it as a whole new adventure.

Eventually I decided that the entire concept of owning an overpriced house was insane, unless I could buy for a fair price I will live the eternal renter. However in the time those around me put themselves into a life of crippling debt slavery I had a series of exotic holidays, bought whatever I wanted, ate out, spent every weekend out doing amazing stuff. I have lived more in these past ten years than anyone I know, if I hated my job Id just leave and get another. I was never "trapped", I know of so many who waste there lives in jobs they hate just servicing there debt slavery to the bank. We all have to eat but they ability to pick your job, to do what you love and to know if you dont like it you can walk out of it at any time with money in the bank does wonders for your spirit. Everyone I know who bought a house is now broken, stressed, penniless and trapped.

This site is amazing, it shows that there are a tiny handful not brainwashed by the propaganda, people who want to live life and arent prepared to imprison themselves just to be like everyone else. Its a hard slog against the combined marketing hype of the mainstream media telling everyone they were going to be rich but if I do want to ever buy a house Ill just wait because I know a crash is coming. I am not an economic genius but when you live in a village and the houses are so expensive even a gp cant afford to live there and there are no sources of income or well paying jobs for 30 miles in every direction eventually something has to give. It could be interest rates, it could be an aging population but eventually its coming down I'm just enjoying life in the meantime.

keep up the great work and a special thank you to all the great inof and advice I have gained from reading thissite.

[long time lurking]

I am seeing exactly the same, the my house has gone up by £x`s type look more beaten than smug now the ones that have survived a bit better now see the problem, as they can't see how their now grown up children are ever going to be able to afford to move out

I'm seeing a change in sentiment through most age groups

I have friends that have aged 20 years in the last five or six years due to the stress of trying to service their debts coupled with the worry of job security

Edited November 18, 2013 by long time lurking

[Debbiebegood]

HI This is my first post but I have been reading this site for a while. It is a shining beacon in a sea of idiots!

Yes.Nice post.I am in the same boat and even though it seems that we are swimming against the tide, I will not be buying a crap derelict shoebox even though they (media,politicians and EAs) flog it as a "great potential" in an "upcoming area" , "great location",etc.

Incredibly, it looks like that 99 out of a 100 sheeple out of this stampeding herd are into this "get rich quick" crap.

Each time I speak to young or old, they are disinterested and look at me as if I am crazy or from planet Zenga.

Brainwashing in Communist countries is nothing compared to this.

In those countries people knew that they were lied to, over here they don't.

And the worst thing is-they don't care that they do not know much about anything-"Education system" dumbed them down.

Even 2+3 is not 5 for them for more than a decade now.

2+3 is what the media,politicians and EAs tell them.

Unbeliavable,considering that this island is the birthplace of Newton,Cavendish,Berners Lee,...

Do not give in, and I hope that other HPCers do not give in to this crap of "house prices will rise,etc" and then buy the overpriced shoebox slum.

[Sandwiches33]

The thing that really horrifies me is the physical and emotional stress that it puts on folk. Then when they are in it they act in complete denial. I completely believe this is why prices haven't come down, its all about belief in value. Still there are a few of us who refuse to play the game. One of my friends who saved a deposit decided against it and spent the money on a year long round the world trip, it made me laugh because every day he posted new pics of himself in some exotic location drinking cocktails. All our peers who bought houses spent the same year slaving jobs they hated, stressed till there eyes bled. He returned, got a job and just rented again happier and fulfilled.

Its especially bad for young folk who get into this property scam, your only young once, live life don't spend it slaving. Maybe if your old, set in your ways with money behind you and no intention of moving but to ruin your twenties with debt slavery is a tragic loss.

Oh and another thing the property porn doesn't tell you, when you rent all you have to find is the rent, the landlord has to fix stuff. In my ten years of renting I have seen three boilers break two of which had to be replaced, 4 roof leaks, two bathroom leaks, 3 dead cookers plus numerous external and internal issues that had to be fixed due to adverse weather or general wear n tear. Dead money my ****, people completely forget a house is in a constant state of degeneration and always needs money plowed into it. The bigger the house the faster it seems to fall apart, two folk I know with really big houses had to employ odd job guys just to maintain it all. Sometimes so much stuff has went wrong there is no way the landlord could have made a profit from my rent that year even if he had no mortgage on the house. I have been in this house only a few months and so far - the front door wont lock and needs fixed, the boiler is leaking and losing pressure, the bathroom tiles have fallen off, the cooker is about to die, the conservatory leaks non of my problems! he has a duty of care to keep to house weather proof etc. Even in houses that were well maintained by the landlord issues come about every couple of months.

If you rent this just isnt an issue. The bloke who came to fit my new washing machine ( bought for cash no debt) said he just came form a repair where the machine was a write off and despite being in a beautiful bungalow when he told the woman the machine was unfixable her face dropped and she said she was skint and would have to add it to the mortgage!

I had another friend who worked for HMRC and I asked him, I earn really good wages and yet I cannot afford a basic house, when I drive around I am surrounded by mercedes and everyone wears designer clothes and seems loads better off what am I doing wrong. His reply " Its all debt, you simply wouldn't believe how much debt everyone has, no-one talks about it they all just keep the scam going your actually better off than most. "

It might get depressing at times when your hit with the relentless propaganda but if you knew just how much debt and stress all those around were under you would be very glad!

In my eyes and from the experiences of my contemporaries buying a house is like committing happiness suicide! This is never talked about on the BBC!

[Saving For a Space Ship]

Nice posts OP

Given the apparent success of the brain washing, it would be good to see more of an indepth psychological analysis.

In your bleeding eyes example, it is worth noting the recent collapse in ebay sales for many, so making a profit there is no longer an option for many mortgage debtors to supplement their repayments.

New House Debtor, New Danger

Edited November 19, 2013 by Saving For a Space Ship

[byron78]

Slightly off topic, but I think a lot of BTL's are in for a shock soon when they realise BTLs actually require investment and maintenance after purchase (unlike the magic bank accounts many think they are).

My rental place needs a new roof and has damp issues that are only going to get worse without significant outlay. Other bits and pieces needing doing too. Landlady is in her 60s and won't be doing them herself. Would estimate her "rent" for the past 5-7 years will just about cover all that needs doing if she addresses things properly.

I'm in the odd position of still renting having recently inherited a house. No mortgage, but I must admit I'm slightly terrified of all the things that might go wrong with it. Renting costs, but it's nice knowing when things go wrong (and I've seen boilers, roofs, and various other issues in ALL my previous rentals) it's somebody else's problem.

Edited November 19, 2013 by byron78

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

I firmly believe the housing stock of the UK will steadily deteriorate further over the next few decades. It will probably be unrecognisable in 30 years time.

And the funny thing is, the renters will get the blame for lowering the tone of an area....when it was really underinvesting landlords and slumlords.

+One million billion percent

[ccc]

I firmly believe the housing stock of the UK will steadily deteriorate further over the next few decades. It will probably be unrecognisable in 30 years time.

And the funny thing is, the renters will get the blame for lowering the tone of an area....when it was really underinvesting landlords and slumlords.

I think we will also see the opposite of 'up and coming areas'.

People seem to think this only moves in one direction. Which is very strange.

[Austin Allegro]

I really enjoyed the OPs post.

This is a huge hidden issue, which nobody wants to discuss. In fact I'd say it's even more a taboo subject than sex was in the Victorian era.

I read a lot of books on money saving and frugal living. Most people cannot - simply cannot - grasp the idea of net worth, yet this is one of the most important personal finance concepts to understand.

Everybody has been so brainwashed for the last 40 years that 'property only goes up' that they believe getting into huge debt is actually a form of investment, whereas in reality they will probably never pay off that debt and will have high maintenance costs into the bargain as well. Everybody I know who 'owns' property has an eye-watering mortgage and is struggling with debt.

I don't believe now that the 'big crash' will ever come - the government cannot allow it as it will essentially mean the collapse of the entire British economy - but stressful struggling will be a feature of home 'owning' for years to come.

The problem is also that TV makeover programmes constantly push the idea of renovations, improvements etc which subtly reinforces the idea that you must 'own' a home to live fully. It's nonsense. Until the 1970s most people lived in rented accommodation. Many single people lived in one or at most two rooms in lodgings or in private hotels or clubs etc all their lives. I don't believe they were deprived or felt deprived.

In fact I feel so strongly about this concept I'm actually writing an e-book on it at the moment!

Edited November 19, 2013 by Austin Allegro

[GinAndPlatonic]

But she probably won't fix it or only fix it once it has fallen in.

I know of two families who were both renting in London with kids near me. The first had the ceiling collapse and this was patched up very cheaply and badly and resulted in a huge black mould patch sitting on the ceiling which the family had to live with until they moved abroad (and landlord kept telling them it was just a bit of mould - it was huge and disgusting). The second family also had the ceiling collapse to the extent that they could see into the flat above. The tenant also had fungi growing in the bathroom and ended up calling environmental health as the landlords were so laid back about all these problems. Tenants also ended up moving abroad. This is the Dickensian London private rented sector in 2013 for you folks! How we have progressed!

It`s not all sweetness and light when you rent. It can be stressful if you are buying or renting. It depends on your income as to what sort of roof you end up with, over your head. The whole system is operating with profit in mind, and not for the physical and mental well being of this countries citizens.

[Austin Allegro]

It`s not all sweetness and light when you rent. It can be stressful if you are buying or renting. It depends on your income as to what sort of roof you end up with, over your head. The whole system is operating with profit in mind, and not for the physical and mental well being of this countries citizens.

True. The trouble is though for years, 'owning' was pushed as the only sensible option. This was based on the folk belief that you could pay off your mortgage in a few years and own your own home. Ten year mortgages on one income were common - my parents paid off their mortgage after ten years, for example, on just my father's salary. Partly this was due to wage inflation in the 70s, but also because the original price was not that high. Of course this made more sense than renting.

However, what happened was that costs went up subtly so that most people didn't notice - mortgage terms got longer, two incomes were required, interest only mortgages became the only affordable option etc - until home 'owning' became even more of a form of slavery, simply 'renting from the bank'. Yet people are still stuck in the 1970s mindset that there is a 'ladder'! :angry:

[StuG III]

I was never "trapped", I know of so many who waste there lives in jobs they hate just servicing there debt slavery to the bank. We all have to eat but they ability to pick your job, to do what you love and to know if you dont like it you can walk out of it at any time with money in the bank does wonders for your spirit. Everyone I know who bought a house is now broken, stressed, penniless and trapped.

Fine, but you also need to earn money to pay the rent, as much as you need money to pay a mortgage. I dont see how renting gives you more ability to pick and chose your job than having a mortgage.

[NorthamptonBear]

Fine, but you also need to earn money to pay the rent, as much as you need money to pay a mortgage. I dont see how renting gives you more ability to pick and chose your job than having a mortgage.

You can move to where the jobs are.

More complicated when you have school age kids, but still better than waiting for 3 years to sell a house.

[pablopatito]

You can move to where the jobs are.

More complicated when you have school age kids, but still better than waiting for 3 years to sell a house.

3 years? I've sold a few houses in my time and moved for work and it's never taken more than 3 months. I've rented for about half my life, and owned for the other half, and I can't say I particularly prefer one to the other, or the one has ever made significantly more financial sense. So I'm always slightly surprised when people come down so passionately on one "side" or the other, and slightly offended when they suggest that my decision to buy a house makes me an idiot/sheep/debt-slave.

[TheCountOfNowhere]

3 years? I've sold a few houses in my time and moved for work and it's never taken more than 3 months. I've rented for about half my life, and owned for the other half, and I can't say I particularly prefer one to the other, or the one has ever made significantly more financial sense. So I'm always slightly surprised when people come down so passionately on one "side" or the other, and slightly offended when they suggest that my decision to buy a house makes me an idiot/sheep/debt-slave.

When did you last move ?

The poor beggars that bought my house in 2007 took 5 years to sell it and only lost about £60k.

[Bruce Banner]

3 years? I've sold a few houses in my time and moved for work and it's never taken more than 3 months. I've rented for about half my life, and owned for the other half, and I can't say I particularly prefer one to the other, or the one has ever made significantly more financial sense. So I'm always slightly surprised when people come down so passionately on one "side" or the other, and slightly offended when they suggest that my decision to buy a house makes me an idiot/sheep/debt-slave.

At least you're not using dead money to pay your landlord's mortgage .

[NorthamptonBear]

3 years? I've sold a few houses in my time and moved for work and it's never taken more than 3 months. I've rented for about half my life, and owned for the other half, and I can't say I particularly prefer one to the other, or the one has ever made significantly more financial sense. So I'm always slightly surprised when people come down so passionately on one "side" or the other, and slightly offended when they suggest that my decision to buy a house makes me an idiot/sheep/debt-slave.

Some houses sell within days, some others years.

It's largely the price. Were you flexible?

If someone has maxed out - or is unwilling to reduce below what they paid or some other fixated price, they could take years to sell.

3, 4, 5 years for somewho are unwilling or unable to take a haircut.

Some go 7 times sold stc, available and back. Depends if chains break or surveys find problems or valuations reduce price

Some have tried almost every agent.

Some try yo-yo-ing the price, others stick to the penny of what they paid or have fixated on.

With low levels of transactions, it can take longer.

People have become very irrational with regards to housing.

Not claiming I am immune!

Most of us just want a decent place to stay without a huge millstone of debt. Fairly reasonable request being stamped on by many in power.

For myself, I'd like a well designed, minimal maintenance, efficient house in a useful location.

I won't get it.

The housing stock will only get worse as it ages, its owners age and have less and less cash - so the huge asset they own is useless to them as they shiver.

Might be better to knock the whole lot down and offer individuals self-build plots to improve the quality of housing.

[Sandwiches33]

Some really good points on here, I'm not saying that buying a house is bad. In fact one day Im sure I will I just refuse to take myself to a mental breakdown or ruin all the other aspects of my life to do it.

What is interesting as someone who moves a lot is the majority of places I view to rent are from old people. I have noticed this a lot in the past couple of years kids long gone pushing into there 70s and 80s.

There house either wouldn't sell and they need to go into a home or move somewhere smaller. As you get older stairs and gardens become a real issue let alone maintenance and heating. I moved three months ago and at least eighty percent of those I viewed were because of an OAP situation. I was just looking at 3 bed nothing exotic.

A year before that move it was the same situation, so much so one house i moved into had oaps all around me and the bloke next door said he wasn't bothered about getting loads for his house he just wanted rid of it as the garden and stairs were too much. He was offering to swap with a young couple who were in a 1 bed ground floor flat with a baby. I wonder if the aging population is going to have a knock on effect?

BTW I have lived nearly everywhere in the UK form the Scottish highlands down to just outside london. London is insane, every time I see articles about billionaires spending millions on tiny houses it makes me wonder if London wont end up inside a perspex bubble while the rest of us have to fight it out in the apocalyptic wasteland that was the UK, Kind of like buck rogers!

[dances with sheeple]

HI This is my first post but I have been reading this site for a while. It is a shining beacon in a sea of idiots!

I thought I would share some stories about not buying a house and why I am not buying a house. Over the years I have encountered all sorts of pressure but I never gave in, here are some of my reasons why.

A good few years ago I thought about it, I had money in the bank good ages and everything was good. Then it got crazy I was earning brilliant wages and my wife and I were saving 1-2k a month. Prices were rising at such a rate that we just decided to give up and spend the money on living and wait for a crash. Over the years I have had to listen to endless friends and family member drone on about it and constantly telling me how foolish I was but the shoe is one the other foot now. Regardless of statistics or charts this is now what I am seeing at ground level.

I had one family member who built there own house about thirty years ago, the bloke passed away but his wife would drone on at every family gathering about how much the house has went up in the previous months. Now a pensioner not only is the house far to big for her she lives in abject poverty struggling to pay to maintain and heat it. Of course she still believes in what it is worth but that is because she has bought into the idea of being rich and refuses to let go. A normal person would punt it cheap and downsize but she is clinging on in there freezing cold in a giant family home nobody wants to buy. At the last family event she looked broken, each month struggling to make ends meet and now the tories and cutting back on pensioners how long before she gives up and sells for a decent price to a family who can make best use of it.

I believe house prices are high because people believe they are rich and are refusing to let go the dream. There is no logic too too it, which is one of the reasons we are still "waiting" on the crash.

I was always told by my elders you should never stretch both wages for a house you can barely afford. Unfortunately many of my friends ignored this advice here is one of them. He just got married and was being pressured by his wife to buy a house, they earned decent money but completely overstretched themselves at the height of the madness. They bought a large house but one of the things people dont seem to realise is that a large house requires almost constant maintenance. Still driven by status she pushed him and he was too weak to tell her where to go. All there wages started to be consumed on "fixing" stuff and the garden alone required almost constant maintenance. Every month he was penniless and was getting more and more exhausted. Eventually he had a nervous breakdown and has never been the same since. Still for that period they did have the biggest house in the street! is a big house worth breaking your soul for?

I have loads of these....

I know someone else, her and her bloke massively overstretched themselves, she lost her job and to make up the difference she started buying and selling online to try and make up a second wage as his entire wage was consumed by the mortgage. 18hours a day she was online, every month not sure if they could make the bills the stress was incredible, her health began to deteriorate until now where her bloke was told his job is now looking dodgy. Among numerous health issues she has now started bleeding out of her eyes. Every month is a massive battle to stay afloat and I dunno how much longer itll last. All this to have a "nice" house.

I have literally hundreds of these from friends and family, I dunno when the madness stops but one thing I have noticed is that people are a lot less smug now. Every person I know is feeling the affect of a job loss or potential job loss. I have not escaped and a few times lost my job but I was never beholden to a large mortgage so I would just pack up a transit and move to the next job. The advantage of this being you see lots of new places and get into new adventures. Yes I have kids and they are a lot more resilient than adults and if we decide to move on they just see it as a whole new adventure.

Eventually I decided that the entire concept of owning an overpriced house was insane, unless I could buy for a fair price I will live the eternal renter. However in the time those around me put themselves into a life of crippling debt slavery I had a series of exotic holidays, bought whatever I wanted, ate out, spent every weekend out doing amazing stuff. I have lived more in these past ten years than anyone I know, if I hated my job Id just leave and get another. I was never "trapped", I know of so many who waste there lives in jobs they hate just servicing there debt slavery to the bank. We all have to eat but they ability to pick your job, to do what you love and to know if you dont like it you can walk out of it at any time with money in the bank does wonders for your spirit. Everyone I know who bought a house is now broken, stressed, penniless and trapped.

This site is amazing, it shows that there are a tiny handful not brainwashed by the propaganda, people who want to live life and arent prepared to imprison themselves just to be like everyone else. Its a hard slog against the combined marketing hype of the mainstream media telling everyone they were going to be rich but if I do want to ever buy a house Ill just wait because I know a crash is coming. I am not an economic genius but when you live in a village and the houses are so expensive even a gp cant afford to live there and there are no sources of income or well paying jobs for 30 miles in every direction eventually something has to give. It could be interest rates, it could be an aging population but eventually its coming down I'm just enjoying life in the meantime.

keep up the great work and a special thank you to all the great inof and advice I have gained from reading thissite.

Uplifting post, thanks. You have vision in a fog of sheeple, well done for thinking your own thoughts. I am finding more and more recently that just killing the TV for days at a time (not smashing it, just not switching on) is very liberating. TV has become a poison, it is very dangerous, a threat to free thinking and liberation from debt slavery IMO.

[dances with sheeple]

I am seeing exactly the same, the my house has gone up by £x`s type look more beaten than smug now the ones that have survived a bit better now see the problem, as they can't see how their now grown up children are ever going to be able to afford to move out

I'm seeing a change in sentiment through most age groups

I have friends that have aged 20 years in the last five or six years due to the stress of trying to service their debts coupled with the worry of job security

It was a Ponzi, it was run by smart/criminal/more informed than sheeple people, they have made their money and they still have it, they will never do jail time. Most of the one`s who brayed at dinner parties about how much their house was "making" were experimental animals (although they may never know/admit this) and they were fleeced.

[b w]

Uplifting post, thanks. You have vision in a fog of sheeple, well done for thinking your own thoughts. I am finding more and more recently that just killing the TV for days at a time (not smashing it, just not switching on) is very liberating. TV has become a poison, it is very dangerous, a threat to free thinking and liberation from debt slavery IMO.

Made the break earlier this year, didnt renew the tv tax as not paying money to have propaganda pumped into my rented flat

[MattW]

Great post, dariuszen. Makes me feel a little better about being a tenant.

In my circle of friends, I'm perceived as a bit of a loser (or an oddball) as I rent. They are too polite to tell me I'm a loser to my face, of course! Almost everyone else has a mortgaged property. A few months ago one of them, who is employed by Barclays, asked me when I'm going to get back on the property ladder* . He probably wants me to join his merry band of mortgagors.

He or my other mortgaged friends have very solid employment (from what I can see) and no evidence of any affordability issues. I do wonder what will be in store for them once interest rates rise?

My other friend and her partner rents a house. They are both far left politically and are very relaxed about the housing situation (either that or the 'Mary Jane' ). I wonder if they have got the right idea after all?

* I sold a flat in 2010 due to a long period of temp work and fear that I might default on the mortgage should this dry up.

[Empire]

Yes I know what you mean. People seem to think they 'can afford it' just because they got accepted for a mortgage.

Will be funny when the interest rates go up, but I doubt that will happen any time soon.

There is a house where I used to live which was for sale for years. Yet the owner never once reduced the price... I think people have an inflated sense of what it's worth.

[macca]

I think the only people that have their heads screwed on are council house tenants, they get cheap rents and have their maintenance paid and can treat the place like a zoo if they wish with few repercussions and no worries.

[dances with sheeple]

Made the break earlier this year, didnt renew the tv tax as not paying money to have propaganda pumped into my rented flat

Yes, it is a scary situation the way the controllers have tried to make the sheeple pay for their own enslavement, through debt at interest and head rinsing via the Idiot Box, hopefully more and more of us are waking up....