Energy

[onlyme2]

where/how do you store the solar energy?

At the household level not a totally use it or lose it scenario - you run stuff using excess power when it is available - just a little bit of intellignece in the quipment required to do that (or simple timers) for stuff like washing machines/driers or dishwashers. Other excess you can dump to thermal store for heating and hot water.

[onlyme2]

If we manage to reduce the cost to the extent he's talking about you don't need to. We'd be awash in energy. We'd have large electricity surpluses most of the time, and for the rest of the time we'd have a few back-up plants etc to meet the difference.

Overnight would be a problem - but then that is where transitioning heavy usage items to daytime would help. Alsmost a reverse economy 7 situation.

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

where/how do you store the solar energy?

You don't need to store it. Use it. Top up the freezer to -60 during the day and then let it come back to -30 overnight. Do your tumble drying/washing during the day. Charge your car during the day. Sell the power to the grid. Whatever.

Just because energy can't be stored doesn't mean it is useless. Just somewhat less useful.

We've been round the storage arguments on here thousands of times. Yes you do need some energy that can be ramped up on demand and stored. But that doesn't mean stuff like wind and solar aren't useful. And if we design our systems to be smart ones to anticipate the fact that energy is not available constantly we can circumvent some of the issues associated with that.

Seems to me most of the problem with energy debate is the fact that energy supply has to be looked at holistically, whereas most of the people doing the debating are just interested in banging on about their pet VI.

[Executive Sadman]

where/how do you store the solar energy?

They have molten salt batteries at those heliostat things in spain.

On a grander scale, you could use the power of gravity and resevoirs. Use a pump to lift water up when there is an excess of solar energy, let gravity power generators as in a conventional hydro-electric dam when there is a lack of it.

[gf3]

where/how do you store the solar energy?

[onlyme2]

The big problem would be a winter period of cold calm overcast conditions. The wind turbines would produce next to nothing, solar would be well down and demand would be pretty much normal, storage would deplete in hours / days at best and you'd be guaranteed blackouts without all pretty much all the infrastructure in place (which wouldn;t be the case for economic reasons).

[Damik]

The big problem would be a winter period of cold calm overcast conditions. The wind turbines would produce next to nothing, solar would be well down and demand would be pretty much normal, storage would deplete in hours / days at best and you'd be guaranteed blackouts without all pretty much all the infrastructure in place (which wouldn;t be the case for economic reasons).

exactly my point. plus who would subsidise normal power stations as they would not make any money during the windy summer

[onlyme2]

exactly my point. plus who would subsidise normal power stations as they would not make any money during the windy summer

Nobody woud want to. I think the penny has dropped for some european power utilities, the likes of NWE have slumped on the markets. A long timr ago did some test cell work where they did pass out tests on industrialized jet turbines, similar to oil rig power packs at the time. Twin packs of these were able replace or at least partially replace the power out of some smalleir power stations. Modern variants using secondary heat recovery in another turbine loop can provide some impressive efficiency gains. I think a network of these in smaller power stations or similar might do the job, Could only see a government making the investment though. By default gong green / renewable to any great extent requires replacing the whole existing power company complex with something entirely different.

[Damik]

Nobody woud want to. I think the penny has dropped for some european power utilities, the likes of NWE have slumped on the markets. A long timr ago did some test cell work where they did pass out tests on industrialized jet turbines, similar to oil rig power packs at the time. Twin packs of these were able replace or at least partially replace the power out of some smalleir power stations. Modern variants using secondary heat recovery in another turbine loop can provide some impressive efficiency gains. I think a network of these in smaller power stations or similar might do the job, Could only see a government making the investment though. By default gong green / renewable to any great extent requires replacing the whole existing power company complex with something entirely different.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/edf37798-6aec-11e2-9871-00144feab49a.html#axzz2l2c89RBw

Eon, Germany’s biggest utility by revenues, is considering the closure of one of Europe’s most modern gas-fired power stations as ructions on the European electricity market forced it to slash its profit forecast for the current year by almost one-third.

The rapid growth of renewable energy sources had made coal and, especially, gas-fired power stations “largely uneconomic to operate”, the company said. It forecast underlying net profit would sink to €2.2bn-€2.6bn in 2013, down from an initial estimate, published last year, of €3.2bn-€3.6bn, and from a profit of €4.3bn in 2012.

Eon said the “unmanaged growth” of renewable energy sources and their privileged access to the market was forcing fossil-fuel plants to spend more time idle, with gas plants suffering more than coal-fired ones because of higher raw material costs.

[onlyme2]

Yes, existing stations, their configuration, location and design, the investment structure, manpower, management overhead all probably incompatible and uneconomic tu run as a ready to roll temporary energy backup mechanism.

[corevalue]

agreed. however the nuclear is one of the most regulated industries with a special focus on the safety and have the lowest amount of killed people per generated kWh

ignoring the renewables issue with the storage

http://nuclear-news.net/2013/11/04/certainty-of-nuclear-disaster-in-europe-within-next-30-years/

[Kurt Barlow]

where/how do you store the solar energy?

Demand management;

Refrigeration systems that charge up when power is available and coast when its not

Water heating systems (ideally using airsource heat pumps) under same principle

Vehicle charging as electric vehicles become more common

Utilise surplus power to generate hydrogen to run hydrocrackers in refineries (saves LPG / methane which can be used as a 'store' of energy).

Supply side;

Pump storage

Conventional hydro

2nd life batteries from hybrids / EV's

rapid response generators utilising waste fuels, biogas etc

Other:

Diversity in systems - wind, waste to energy etc

Interconnectors to help utilise different time zones

Edited November 19, 2013 by Kurt Barlow

[Guest spp]

The Automatic Earth looks at the UK plc ..

Energy Is A Power Game - pt. 1, 2 & 3.

http://www.theautomaticearth.com/Energy/energy-is-a-power-game-1.html

http://www.theautomaticearth.com/Energy/energy-is-a-power-game-2-britain-is-losing.html

http://theautomaticearth.com/Energy/energy-is-a-power-game-3-they-cheat-and-they-lie.html

Truly shocking!

[Damik]

Demand management;

Refrigeration systems that charge up when power is available and coast when its not

Water heating systems (ideally using airsource heat pumps) under same principle

Vehicle charging as electric vehicles become more common

Utilise surplus power to generate hydrogen to run hydrocrackers in refineries (saves LPG / methane which can be used as a 'store' of energy).

Supply side;

Pump storage

Conventional hydro

2nd life batteries from hybrids / EV's

rapid response generators utilising waste fuels, biogas etc

Other:

Diversity in systems - wind, waste to energy etc

Interconnectors to help utilise different time zones

Kurt, it reads like a StarTrek ...

in the mean time some pictures from the real world:

only 25 GWs of difference to store somewhere ...

Edited November 19, 2013 by Damik

[Guest spp]

Kurt, it reads like a StarTrek ...

in the mean time some pictures from the real world:

only 25 GWs of difference to store somewhere ...

[The Knimbies who say No]

Kurt, it reads like a StarTrek ...

in the mean time some pictures from the real world:

only 25 GWs of difference to store somewhere ...

I'm always surprised by how high the base demand level is, presume this is mostly industry?

Renewable techs that run during daytime peak hours like solar surely mean less storage issues?

[gf3]

The Automatic Earth looks at the UK plc ..

Energy Is A Power Game - pt. 1, 2 & 3.

http://www.theautomaticearth.com/Energy/energy-is-a-power-game-1.html

http://www.theautomaticearth.com/Energy/energy-is-a-power-game-2-britain-is-losing.html

http://theautomaticearth.com/Energy/energy-is-a-power-game-3-they-cheat-and-they-lie.html

My god what a bunch of thieving b*stards we have got running this country

[Damik]

I'm always surprised by how high the base demand level is, presume this is mostly industry?

Renewable techs that run during daytime peak hours like solar surely mean less storage issues?

the peaks are early mornings and late evenings when is minimal light; especially during cloudy winters

Edited November 19, 2013 by Damik

[The Knimbies who say No]

the peaks are early mornings and late evenings when is minimal light; especially during cloudy winters

The graph shows a peak at between 3 and 5pm, with a step up from base to a plateau from 9am. Surely solar is well suited to contribute to this demand pattern, albeit winter will narrow the hours so it may miss the big peak.

You talk as if solar production is way out of synch with demand; your graph suggests that is not the case.

[Damik]

The graph shows a peak at between 3 and 5pm, with a step up from base to a plateau from 9am. Surely solar is well suited to contribute to this demand pattern, albeit winter will narrow the hours so it may miss the big peak.

You talk as if solar production is way out of synch with demand; your graph suggests that is not the case.

nope; the peaks are about 0830 morning and 1800 evening; this is problem in winter

this is Cambridge solar in summer:

Cambridge solar in summer with clouds:

Edited November 20, 2013 by Damik

[The Knimbies who say No]

nope; the peaks are about 0830 morning and 1800 evening; this is problem in winter

this is Cambridge solar in summer:

Cambridge solar in summer with clouds:

Ok, the blow up shows the peaks with more precision, ta. So solar's contribution falls off just as the peak rises.

The (admittedly only) person I know with a solar (PV) installation has modified their behaviour somewhat to smooth out their own demand peak to make use of generation during the day. They reckoned that the 8kWh or so they got in a day was enough to cover their use, provided they could make use of it.

I guess some people will be able to do this, and others will not. The storage issues are not insurmountable, surely?

Biggest problem with solar PV is the fee-in tariff derived installation costs.

[fluffy666]

nope; the peaks are about 0830 morning and 1800 evening; this is problem in winter

But generally speaking, Solar does match demand to some degree, certainly better than wind. Add in smart metering (TFH people aside) and you can probably get rid of those peaks anyway.

For the UK, the seasonal aspect is much worse. You really don't generate much power in the UK from November through to February - I have panels on my roof and I'm enough of a geek to keep a spreadsheet. We also do a crude form of smart metering, timing things like the washing machine and dishwasher to come on in the middle of the day when the power is available.

Having said which, I would prefer to see an always-over saturated grid with the surplus devoted to liquid fuel synthesis. That way the whole 'demand matching' problem becomes irrelevant; the first stage of any fuel synthesis program is hydrogen production via electrolysis, which can be trivially tuned to absorb surplus electricity. The very idea of matching supply to whatever the demand is is a historical artifact, not the way it has to work.

[Kurt Barlow]

Kurt, it reads like a StarTrek ...

in the mean time some pictures from the real world:

only 25 GWs of difference to store somewhere ...

You obviously haven't heard of pumped storage, refrigeration, water heating, electric vehicles, electrolysis, hydroelectricity, dynamic demand management.

Try Wiki - I think it adequately covers the subjects above

Incase you can't find it - here is the link

www.wiki.org

[Kurt Barlow]

But generally speaking, Solar does match demand to some degree, certainly better than wind. Add in smart metering (TFH people aside) and you can probably get rid of those peaks anyway.

For the UK, the seasonal aspect is much worse. You really don't generate much power in the UK from November through to February - I have panels on my roof and I'm enough of a geek to keep a spreadsheet. We also do a crude form of smart metering, timing things like the washing machine and dishwasher to come on in the middle of the day when the power is available.

Having said which, I would prefer to see an always-over saturated grid with the surplus devoted to liquid fuel synthesis. That way the whole 'demand matching' problem becomes irrelevant; the first stage of any fuel synthesis program is hydrogen production via electrolysis, which can be trivially tuned to absorb surplus electricity. The very idea of matching supply to whatever the demand is is a historical artifact, not the way it has to work.

Wind resources are generally higher in winter and in the daytime. Solar and wind tend to compliment each other. Solar matches demand much more closely in locations utilising a lot of air con.

Anyway stop presenting rational thought out posts - you know thats illegal here!

[Damik]

Wind resources are generally higher in winter and in the daytime. Solar and wind tend to compliment each other. Solar matches demand much more closely in locations utilising a lot of air con.

Anyway stop presenting rational thought out posts - you know thats illegal here!

Hi Kurt,

good to have you back. Just checking how much wind electricity was produced in UK on last Sunday and Monday: big fat zero

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

I think it is great to base the UK national electricity production on sun and wind. It can seem like a problem that the electricity production from these sources can drop to 20% for a few days, but it is OK. We will just use 5x more of wind mills and solar panels. Problem solved.

A plenty of problems can be solved if you do not care about the costs ...