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Jfk Shooting On 50Th Anniversary

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Again saw a documentary last night on the theory that the FBI agent, Hickey, accidentally shot JFK with the fatal blow whilst trying to turn his rifle on the book depository after Oswald's initial two shots. The evidence looked pretty overwhelming, well it would wouldn't it.

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I doubt there will ever be an answer. So far we have two US govt versions one Oswald did it, the other JFK was murdered by a conspiracy.

Watching the headshot with JFK it's hard to see how he was shot from behind when his head goes back. Shouldn't his head move forwards if shot from behind?

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It generally fits the governments 'dont let a crisis go to waste' ethos.

Admitting an FBI agent screwed up doesn't really provide much of a reason to remove freedoms like 'crazy extremist commie gunman' does.

The 'Incompetent agent shot JFK by accident' theory is more ridiculous than the quite ridiculous Oswald did it theory.

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The 'Incompetent agent shot JFK by accident' theory is more ridiculous than the quite ridiculous Oswald did it theory.

The real truth is that it was suicide after his wife found out about Marilyn Monroe.

I don't think that's any crazier than all the other theories flying around :).

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The 'Incompetent agent shot JFK by accident' theory is more ridiculous than the quite ridiculous Oswald did it theory.

Well it seemed quite plausible to me......

(1) Oswald didn't have enough time to fire three bullets, firearms experts with the same rifle couldn't manage more than two before the car disappears under the underpass during reconstructions.

(2) The bullet that killed Kennedy was one that fragmented in the brain, the first two bullets were solid non-disintegrating bullets.

(3) Gun powder smelt by several witnesses in the trailing cars.,a trail that could have only been left by a discharged fire arm in Hickey's car.

(4) Hickey's assault riffle was ready to fire and a jerk backwards could have set it off accidentally.

(5) Hickey is seen to pull the rifle prior to the fatal shot not after.

(6) The autopsy cover up by the FBI, they even confiscated the brain with the disintegrated bullet, different to the other two bullets.

(7) the trajectory of the fatal shot was correct for the following car.

Totally from memory from the channel 5 documentary, but there were several other salient points.

This disagrees and pins it on Oswald, in US paper today...........

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/jfk50/explore/20131116-jfk-conspiracy-theories-abound-despite-a-lack-of-evidence.ece?nclick_check=1

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Well it seemed quite plausible to me......

(1) Oswald didn't have enough time to fire three bullets, firearms experts with the same rifle couldn't manage more than two before the car disappears under the underpass during reconstructions.

(2) The bullet that killed Kennedy was one that fragmented in the brain, the first two bullets were solid non-disintegrating bullets.

(3) Gun powder smelt by several witnesses in the trailing cars.,a trail that could have only been left by a discharged fire arm in Hickey's car.

(4) Hickey's assault riffle was ready to fire and a jerk backwards could have set it off accidentally.

(5) Hickey is seen to pull the rifle prior to the fatal shot not after.

(6) The autopsy cover up by the FBI, they even confiscated the brain with the disintegrated bullet, different to the other two bullets.

(7) the trajectory of the fatal shot was correct for the following car.

Totally from memory from the channel 5 documentary, but there were several other salient points.

This disagrees and pins it on Oswald, in US paper today...........

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/jfk50/explore/20131116-jfk-conspiracy-theories-abound-despite-a-lack-of-evidence.ece?nclick_check=1

I haven't seen the documentary or read the book that it was based on. However, that list of points above is a mix of supposition and generic observations which do not support the Hickey theory to the exclusion of all others.

The list also omits material which contradicts the Hickey theory.

As a general rule, whenever I see an alternative narrative that intrigues me, I plonk some key search words into google followed by 'debunked'. A search for 'George Hickey JFK debunked' chucks up stuff like...

- Why did none of the agents around Hickey react when he allegedly fired off a shot? Why were there no witnesses amongst the people watching the motorcade?

- How can anyone tell what the trajectory was, based on a gaping hole in JFK's head and a disintegrated bullet?

- What are the chances of an accidental shot drilling JFK slap bang in the middle of his head?

wrt point #3 'a trail that could have only been left by a discharged fire arm in Hickey's car', some researchers suggest a shot was taken from a culvert at pavement level a few feet from JFK's car. I'm not suggesting this was the case, just illustrating the pitfalls of lines like 'could have only'

It's a curious theory this one. It attempts to account for a couple of the apparent inconsistencies in the official narrative; the close timing of the shots, the near pristine bullet on the stretcher, whilst still supporting the core theme of the narrative that only Oswald, on his own, set out to kill JFK that day.

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I haven't seen the documentary or read the book that it was based on. However, that list of points above is a mix of supposition and generic observations which do not support the Hickey theory to the exclusion of all others.

The list also omits material which contradicts the Hickey theory.

As a general rule, whenever I see an alternative narrative that intrigues me, I plonk some key search words into google followed by 'debunked'. A search for 'George Hickey JFK debunked' chucks up stuff like...

- Why did none of the agents around Hickey react when he allegedly fired off a shot? Why were there no witnesses amongst the people watching the motorcade.

- How can anyone tell what the trajectory was, based on a gaping hole in JFK's head and a disintegrated bullet?

- What are the chances of an accidental shot drilling JFK slap bang in the middle of his head?

wrt point #3 'a trail that could have only been left by a discharged fire arm in Hickey's car', some researchers suggest a shot was taken from a culvert at pavement level a few feet from JFK's car. I'm not suggesting this was the case, just illustrating the pitfalls of lines like 'could have only'

It's a curious theory this one. It attempts to account for a couple of the apparent inconsistencies in the official narrative; the close timing of the shots, the near pristine bullet on the stretcher, whilst still supporting the core theme of the narrative that only Oswald, on his own, set out to kill JFK that day.

Certainly you get a very one sided story with these documentaries. All prosecution and no defence. None of the points you raise were mentioned in Hickey's defence. As I said the documentary would make an overwhelming case to sell it.

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People who say that Oswald shot the President think that solves the problem of conspiracy. It doesn't, because they are ignoring Oswald's murky history.

After leaving the Marine Corps he 'defected' to the Soviet Union. His widow Marina claims that when she met him, she thought he was Russian because he spoke the language fluently. In other words, he had likely received professional training as opposed to simply reading 'Russian for Dummies.'

The mystery depends when we consider his 're-defection.' His US nationality was automatically reinstated despite having renounced it - no application, no awkward questions about his two-and-a-half years in Minsk, AND he was given $5,000 in cash to help him resettle.

A bit strange when you consider how paranoid the US was about the Russkies and the Commies.

Seems to me that Oswald never left the payroll of the US government.

About the agent shooting JFK, that is not possible based on the fact that looking from the front of the vehicle, Kennedy went 'back and to the left.' If the agent had shot him from the driver's seat, Kennedy would have gone back and to the right.

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People who say that Oswald shot the President think that solves the problem of conspiracy. It doesn't, because they are ignoring Oswald's murky history.

I agree that this is a major problem about anyone debunking the conspiracies I've not read a single plausible explanation for it and why are Oswalds tax records still an official secret?

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People who say that Oswald shot the President think that solves the problem of conspiracy. It doesn't, because they are ignoring Oswald's murky history.

Agreed, I think the wilder conspiracy theories deflect attention from the simpler and far more plausible conspiracy.

The basic narrative is correct, JFK was killed by 1 of 3 rounds fired by a sniper in the Texas Book Repository. The sniper was probably LHO (although it is remotely possible that someone impersonated him), the real unanswered question is what motivated him and did he receive any assistance from other parties?

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About the agent shooting JFK, that is not possible based on the fact that looking from the front of the vehicle, Kennedy went 'back and to the left.' If the agent had shot him from the driver's seat, Kennedy would have gone back and to the right.

A (pre public viewing of the Zapruder film) Dan Rather says otherwise (two minutes in)...

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I have to say - I thought it had been decided that it was the mafia.

A pretty good case can be made that Oswald was killed by the Mafia, or at least by someone with strong mafia connections.

As a general point, people can fruitlessly tie themselves into knots staring at grainy cine films and pontificating about specialist technical issues such as ballistics. It's unlikely to yield conclusive outcomes. You could scrutinse any chain of events that led to a particular outcome and eventually find an unlikely/ improbable event in that chain.

Having said that, I do suspect the JFK official narrative is bent in some way. However, that's down to (as already mentioned) Oswald's murky background, Oswald's claim to be a patsy, Ruby killing Oswald and the arguably dodgy behaviour of the Warren Commission. Not the technical minutiae of how the 'hit' went down that so many seem to get sucked into.

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If it was the Mafia wot dun it, how did they get the Secret Service to alter the route at the last moment, and how did they arrange for the bubble top on the president's car to be removed?

Richard Nixon originally thought Oswald had done it alone because that's what J Edgar Hoover told him. But he was disabused when he saw jack Ruby shoot Oswald.

"I know that man!" Nixon shouted at the TV. And indeed he did because back in the 1940s Nixon's sub-committee in the House of representatives got a job for Ruby at the request for Lyndon Johnson.

Here's a clip of Jack Ruby talking to reporters shortly before his unexpected death. basically, he is saying that if Adlai Stevenson had been vice-president, this never would have happened. "The answer is the man in office now."

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2510204/The-Woman-Blue-Raincoat-took-famous-Polaroid-JFK-shot-speaks-says-thinks-theres-story.html

The Woman in the Blue Raincoat' speaks out: Bystander who took Polaroid of JFK being shot recalls fateful day and says she thinks there's 'more to the story'

Mary Ann Moorman took her Polaroid camera to the parade route and took a photo the moment before John F Kennedy was fatally shot in the head

She was so close enough to the convertible that she heard Jackie scream: 'My God, he's been shot!'

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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-20/castro-oswald-could-not-have-been-the-one-who-killed-kennedy-.html

Fidel Castro shares at least one belief with the majority of Americans: He is convinced that the assassination of President John F. Kennedy was not the work of a lone gunman, but rather the culmination of a broad conspiracy. According to a recent Gallup poll, 61 percent of Americans believe Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone in Dallas 50 years ago.

But Castro suspects that Oswald might not have been involved in the assassination at all. He told me -- to my great surprise -- over lunch three years ago in Havana: β€œI have reached the conclusion that Oswald could not have been the one who killed Kennedy.” Castro is of course a confident man, but he said this with a degree of surety that was noteworthy.

..

At one point, I mentioned the letter he wrote to Khrushchev at the height of the crisis, in which he asked the Soviets to consider launching a nuclear strike against the U.S. if the Americans attacked Cuba. "That would be the time to think about liquidating such a danger forever through a legal right of self-defense," he wrote. In Havana, I asked him, β€œAt a certain point it seemed logical for you to recommend that the Soviets bomb the U.S. Does what you recommended still seem logical now?"

He answered: "After I've seen what I've seen, and knowing what I know now, it wasn't worth it all.” I expressed relief that Khrushchev ignored his request.

Even Castro it seems doesn't believe it either.

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If it was the Mafia wot dun it, how did they get the Secret Service to alter the route at the last moment, and how did they arrange for the bubble top on the president's car to be removed?

Regardless of whether Oswald acted alone or not, one of the fascinating aspects of context of the JFK assassination is the plethora of sleazy interconnections between all the VIs that stood to benefit from his death - Hoover's alleged interest in gambling and cross-dressing f**k parties and his fifty year long denial that the Mafia even existed, Kennedy allegedly sharing mistresses with Mafia dons, CIA assassination/ coup plotting teams working with Cuban fascists/ the Mob/ corporations to regain nationalised Cuban refineries and casinos, potty Air Force generals agitating to start proxy wars with Russia via Cuba or Vietnam. All sorts.

TBH distinctions between the Mafia and the CIA get a bit moot at this point in history.

The 'Operation 40' assassination team chilling out in a Mexico City restaurant a few months before the JFK killing...

34or3vq.jpg

So, do they look like CIA operatives, Mafia enforcers, or a bit of both?

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TBH distinctions between the Mafia and the CIA get a bit moot at this point in history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborations_between_the_United_States_government_and_Italian_Mafia

To be fair there the US govt and the Italian Mafia appear to have had a very cosy relationship that kicked off in WWII.

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/jfk-ten-unanswered-questions-about-the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy-50-years-on-8955533.html

JFK assassination: Ten unanswered questions on the 50th anniversary
The true extent of the relationship between Lee Harvey Oswald and the CIA will probably not be known at least until the release of CIA's JFK assassination files in October 2017.

Hmmm I wonder if anything will come out with this.

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I doubt there will ever be an answer. So far we have two US govt versions one Oswald did it, the other JFK was murdered by a conspiracy.

Wasn't it a bullet not a conspiracy?

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2512339/Will-footage-second-shooter-prove-Lee-Harvey-Oswald-did-NOT-act-JFK-shooting.html

Will 'long-hidden footage of second shooter' to be aired this week prove Lee Harvey Oswald did NOT act alone?

Texas real-estate developer Stephen Bowen claims to have footage of JFK's assassination

He says he footage was taken by a Houston news producer on November 22, 1963

The tape reportedly depicts a second shooter hiding in the bushes along the route of JFK's motorcade

Bowen is hoping to sell the footage to the highest bidder

Evidence of a murder sold to the highest bidder.

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