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Self Employed Youth

Social Housing Envy Scale

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The unemployed/disabled/low income person has a spare bedroom!

The injustice!

Won't somebody think of the 'hardworking people'?

In the UK, some workers on above average salary pay lots of income tax and live in bedsits and shared houses. Whilst some people who don't work live a life of 'luxury' when it comes to private dwelling space, and might possibly have a 'spare room'.

Measuring social housing envy on the basis of the number of bedrooms though is pretty pointless.

So we need a SOCIAL HOUSING ENVY SCALE.

There are all kinds of things we need to take into account. Bedroom size for example, the amount of 'other' rooms, their size, the size of the garden, the location in terms of leisure, transport, commercial and industrial surroundings (parks, green spaces, theatres, cinemas, sports facilities/railways stations, motorways, canals, ports, airports/shopping centers, the high st., out of town retail parks, markets/jobs and wages).

It's already getting a bit complicated. But we can measure the worth quite easily. It's £XYZ. The council flat in Brixton is worth more than the council house in Leeds, which is worth more than the private house in Middlesborough.

From this we can calculate the price per square metre.

We know the build cost, we can determine the fair rent per square metre for the construction of new property.

(£800 build per sqm, some 92pence per square metre per week assuming 6% yield)

So I propose we take the difference in value and express it in terms of new build property per metre squared.

PM=Parker Morris (i.e. the space standards set out in the PM report)

A PM flat is 45m^2.

Suppose somebody working in Barnsley rents a private PM flat for £67/week, an exactly the same social housing flat next door is some £67/week.

SHES = 0m^2

Suppose somebody working in Huddersfield rents a private PM flat for £70.10 a week, and somebody next door rents am identical property for £69.

SHES = 1.2m^2 (a pallet).

Suppose somebody in London rents a private PM flat for £300 a week, whilst somebody in social housing rents a similar property next door for £80 a week.

SHES = 200m^2 (3 new build 3 bed semi detached barrat boxes)

Suppose somebody in Kirklees rents a private PM flat for £67/week, whilst somebody in social housing rents a similar property next door for £65.

SHES = -2.17,m^2

SHSS= 2.17m^2

The social housing envy scale can be negative, and thus leads to a social housing shame scale for people paying over the odds.

Suppose somebody in XYZ rents a PM flat for £100 per week, and somebody else rents a flat next door with an extra 1sq metre of space for £100.

SHES = 1m^2

as above, but reversed;

SHSS = 1m^2

Suppose there is a homeless person, and somebody rents a PM flat for £67 per week.

SHES = 72m^2

(Ironically the PM flat is only 45m^2)

HPCers I present you the SHES, I'm sure arguments can be picked in it, please go ahead, and see if it can be refined, or expressed better.

I will say though, that we can adjust SHES for deservedness using a 'DF' A DF is a Deservedness Factor to determine whether or not somebody deserves housing space as set out in PM space standards.

An adult aged 35-adjustable pension age could have a deservedness factor of 1.

An under 35 could have a DF factor of 0.8

An under 35 could have DF of 0.6

A partner could have a DF of 0.1-0.5 depending on age.

A child could have a DF of 0.5

A pensioner could have DF of 2.

An unemployed person could have his DF reduced by 0.1 points.

A disabled person could have his DF increased by 0.1 to 0.5 points.

Somebody in a non-job could have his DF reduced.

Somebody in a real job could have his DF increased.

Somebody getting paid more than they would on average could have his DF reduced.

Somebody getting paid less than they would on average could have his DF increased.

Thus with the above simple system of measuring Social housing envy and housing deservedness, we could determine whether a person should envy another or not, based upon their circumstances and housing position.

Should the minimum wage gardener with 2 children and a wife in a 3bed council in Doncaster envy the single banker earning £100k renting a bedsit in Esher, or should the banker envy the gardener?

We could work it out. And then express the envy, in easy to understand units.

The whole point of the exercise would be to show that envy is madness, when we compare the homeless person to the housed person, for his envy would exceed the cost of building new housing space to house him.

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When I first joined this site- not that long ago- the idea that posters on here would be enraged by the lavish living spaces enjoyed by the occupants of social housing would have been nonsensical.

Yet now it's a genuine source of rage for a lot of people-incredible. Nothing more clearly demonstrates the total mess that is UK housing than this odd and hilarious turn of events.

Does it need to be pointed out that the people living in those suddenly desirable spaces did not create this problem, nor do they have the power to change it- so screaming at them or about them is utterly futile- that their situation is now a cause for envy amongst the (former?) middle classes is surely a turning point of some kind?

Or will we eventually be treated to the spectacle of the chavs being turfed out of their social housing to make way for the newest members of the underclass whose outrage is now a constant feature of this forum?

We are nearly at the point where somebody will give vent to the thought that social housing is too good for the poor- and so should be given instead to somebody more deserving- like themselves? Somebody of more refined nature who would look after it and treat it with the respect such housing riches deserves?

Yes- I can see a time coming when such arguments will begin to seem not only rational- but fair. After all- why shouldn't the middle classes have the social housing- they did pay for it- right?

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Yes- I can see a time coming when such arguments will begin to seem not only rational- but fair. After all- why shouldn't the middle classes have the social housing- they did pay for it- right?

The irony being that a £67 a week one bed flat of 45 sqm (one of the cheapest social housing flats), could be built to 72 sqm at a profit by the council for £67/week.

But instead of demanding new better sized affordable housing people would rather fight over smaller housing, and demand people are removed from larger houses, with the larger houses ending up demolished.

Edited by Self Employed Youth

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It's now gone the complete opposite of when I was at school in the 70s/80s when you would have been taken the pi$$ out of and ostracised for living in a Council house.

Now the bitter envy is I'm told by some of my peers I'm well lucky and don't deserve a social housing flat and that I should give it up to some one more deserving (read immigrant/ethnic minority*) as I could 'afford' to buy my own flat, despite falling into the brackets on salary that qualify me for the myriad of government funded schemes to get people onto the property ladder. :lol: I tell them I could afford a packet of crisps for £10 but that doesn't mean that I would buy them.

* Last time I looked at the 2001 consensus, ethnic minorities were disproportionately represented in the social housing figures. i.e they occupied more than whites.

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It's now gone the complete opposite of when I was at school in the 70s/80s when you would have been taken the pi$$ out of and ostracised for living in a Council house.

I have a lot of sympathy for those raised in a council house in those days who suffered and now stuck suffering in the private rental sector with their families.

Oh look, it's me.

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I have a lot of sympathy for those raised in a council house in those days who suffered and now stuck suffering in the private rental sector with their families.

Oh look, it's me.

Me too, and that's why we should be building more council/social homes with no RTB like we did in the 50s and 60s.

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I certainly don't envy anyone living in a council house, maybe in other places they are not like the horrific estates in Coventry.

But, I do see it as a taxpayer funded resource that needs to be used as efficiently as possible.

Thats all there is to it as far as I can see.

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People are angry that their Tory- Rentier friends have sold them down the river (again) and turned them into 'rent forever' loosers, not under the thumb of a local authority, but 'mom and pop' Rachmans who don't even have to register as a business, and can evict them if they as much as request repairs.

Had it not been for Tory reforms in the 80's and the creation of the AST then most private renters on here would by now, be home owners and we would have had our housing crash, as residential property would have remained unattractive to private speculators. Housing benefit ballooned out of control under Mrs T as she thought that moving from controlled rents to market rents was a price worth paying.

As with all bogus Tory market 'reforms' precious little done on the supply side of course, so understandable there is some social housing envy. Social tenants are more bemused bystanders surrounded by a totally bonkers and out of balance housing market.

A secure tenancy and the ability to put down roots in a neighbourhood should be the norm and not the exception, and the if 'the market' can't cope with that, then landlords should be forced to liquidate.

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I see this as the same argument about final salary pensions but for housing.

Once upon a time, the public sector (houses/pension schemes) were considered to be a bit crap. Then the corporatists managed to influence governments to allow them to nobble the (pensions/housing) thus creating a situation whereby the once-crap is now better than the proles can get from the private sector. Champagne all round for the corporatists and the proles are left fighting with themselves about those left in the public sector (pensions/houses) to demand a race to the bottom so everyone is on the corporatist minimal existence.

However, I think we should be arguing and fighting the other way since those crap pensions will need state supplements by the time they are drawn and the housing stock of bedsits simply won't be suitable for older people with care needs.

Bring back final salary pensions via increased contributions and rebalance the housing through more non-RTB council housing built to the old standards of room size.

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Does it need to be pointed out that the people living in those suddenly desirable spaces did not create this problem, nor do they have the power to change it- so screaming at them or about them is utterly futile- that their situation is now a cause for envy amongst the (former?) middle classes is surely a turning point of some kind?

Well written Pup, and so true

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Me too, and that's why we should be building more council/social homes with no RTB like we did in the 50s and 60s.

There was a plan to build Housing Association houses in the parish, the two local Tory Councillors (father and daughter) went ballistic and said no way were they having "Council Houses" on the plot! Strangely the vast majority of social housing in the two and a bit villages in the parish were sold of years ago under Mrs T

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I certainly don't envy anyone living in a council house, maybe in other places they are not like the horrific estates in Coventry.

But, I do see it as a taxpayer funded resource that needs to be used as efficiently as possible.

Thats all there is to it as far as I can see.

How can social housing be a tax payer funded resource? Especially if its actually a independent Housing Association?

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Well written Pup, and so true

True indeed

It was fine as long add the middle classes had cheap credit and massive unearned housing equity

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Out here in the sticks most council houses are small rows of semis, rather than the sprawling estates in northern cities, thus theres not much stigma. Plus they all seem to have 200-400ft rear gardens, 50ft front gardens and almost enough space down the side for a new build small detached. Homes fit for heroes, unlike todays slaveboxes.

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Especially if its actually a independent Housing Association?

For real?

Hint: Who gives the money to the 'independent' housing association? :huh:

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Out here in the sticks most council houses are small rows of semis, rather than the sprawling estates in northern cities, thus theres not much stigma. Plus they all seem to have 200-400ft rear gardens, 50ft front gardens and almost enough space down the side for a new build small detached. Homes fit for heroes, unlike todays slaveboxes.

Shuuush...!

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As for council houses,most are being bought out. Most councils are paying their historic debt to central government which should take about 30 years (28 now!) Half of our rent goes to pay this debt.

I guess when they`ve paid for their housing they`ll have to spend out on council pensions.

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When I first joined this site- not that long ago- the idea that posters on here would be enraged by the lavish living spaces enjoyed by the occupants of social housing would have been nonsensical.

I joined this site in 2006 and I have always thought that like

Does it need to be pointed out that the people living in those suddenly desirable spaces did not create this problem, nor do they have the power to change it- so screaming at them or about them is utterly futile- that their situation is now a cause for envy amongst the (former?) middle classes is surely a turning point of some kind?

So the pro single mum who decided to live off other people rather than working is not part of the problem? Of course she is, she could have worked rather than getting pregnant.

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As for council houses,most are being bought out. Most councils are paying their historic debt to central government which should take about 30 years (28 now!) Half of our rent goes to pay this debt.

I guess when they`ve paid for their housing they`ll have to spend out on council pensions.

Meanwhile the council housing (minus those that were built high rise in the 60/70s brutalist mode) have proved excellent value for money. Not so sure about the unfunded pension schemes, other than sink the many into debt servitude for the benefit of the few.

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It's now gone the complete opposite of when I was at school in the 70s/80s when you would have been taken the pi$$ out of and ostracised for living in a Council house.

Now the bitter envy is I'm told by some of my peers I'm well lucky and don't deserve a social housing flat and that I should give it up to some one more deserving (read immigrant/ethnic minority*) as I could 'afford' to buy my own flat, despite falling into the brackets on salary that qualify me for the myriad of government funded schemes to get people onto the property ladder. :lol: I tell them I could afford a packet of crisps for £10 but that doesn't mean that I would buy them.

* Last time I looked at the 2001 consensus, ethnic minorities were disproportionately represented in the social housing figures. i.e they occupied more than whites.

I think it has got more so since then. New immigrants are more successful at getting council housing than the rest of the population.

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For real?

Hint: Who gives the money to the 'independent' housing association? :huh:

What money? The Government cut its subsidy a few a few years ago, Housing Associations faced with a massive shortfall had to look at other ways of generating income, some tried Community Employment Agencies (which was fine till the economy failed), some tried Consultancies like "Diversity" which was fine until the New Labour gravy train ended in 2010.

There was a stage of Mergers and Acquisitions for example the Granta Housing Association in Cambridgeshire was taken over (name change as well) by the Metropolitan Housing Association, but its now been realised that its not a good idea to spread over to far a wide area (whats the pint in having property in the north east if your based in the Midlands!) most Housing Associations have been investing in New Builds, mixture of property for out right sale, shared ownership and to rent, some have let builders have half a plot on the provision they build the HA bungalows for the disabled.

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I joined this site in 2006 and I have always thought that like

So the pro single mum who decided to live off other people rather than working is not part of the problem? Of course she is, she could have worked rather than getting pregnant.

Hmm lets see, normal kid but from dysfunctional broken home goes to secondary school and meets the "Vicky Pollard" kid and all the other kids adopt "Vicky speak and the lame **** accent" Kid gets into shoplifting through peer pressure, realises that money buys, parents can't take control, police say kids has rights which parents can't interfere with. At 15 kid meets 20 something woman, care in the community type with mental issues (basically discharged from medical care), who has a flat provided + benefits but because they are vulnerable somehow gets extra payments.

Impressionable 15 year old says yeah I want that! Coz they get everything paid for them (why work?) - not understanding that the woman has medical issues.

15 year junks school before exams and is pregnant within months, waiting for a flat.

Whats the solution? Because where I am standing, the system doesn't know how to deal with these people.

Edited by Hectors House

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I joined this site in 2006 and I have always thought that like

So the pro single mum who decided to live off other people rather than working is not part of the problem? Of course she is, she could have worked rather than getting pregnant.

...who got her pregnant....do they work? ;)

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...who got her pregnant....do they work? ;)

Sometimes that can be hard to tell!

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