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The Bubbly Bitcoin Thread -- Merged Threads

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bitcoin volumes have dropped a lot on the exchanges, which normally shows lack of support for the current price direction.

For now could be a sign of hitting support.

could still slowly bleed lower over a longer period. but the momentum selling seems to have abated.  

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9 hours ago, oracle said:

addendum:

just to reinforce my point,just check out youtube crypto updates.

90 odd percent of them are young techies doing the serious analysis,and you get the odd lass still shilling bitconnect!

I always thought they tended to be older, like 40s or 50s with a few younger ones like Winklevoss (about 35?). And it seems to be the same on this forum  (one late 20s, then lots 40 or older). And in my experience met a few middle aged men who own but younger people I talked to didn't really know about it.

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everyone I know including myself are mid to late 20’s 

i would consider anyone older to be extremely tech savy for an old person, hats off to you if you in your 40’s and can see Bitcoins potential 

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42 minutes ago, jiltedjen said:

everyone I know including myself are mid to late 20’s 

i would consider anyone older to be extremely tech savy for an old person, hats off to you if you in your 40’s and can see Bitcoins potential 

I don’t think it’s about being tech savvy, it’s more about being financially aware. I think a lot of the people who bought early on understood the problems with the economy and so understood what a sea change Bitcoin represents. From there the learnt what they needed to to use the tech. 

I think more recently a lot of tech savvy people have joined. 

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49 minutes ago, jiltedjen said:

everyone I know including myself are mid to late 20’s 

i would consider anyone older to be extremely tech savy for an old person, hats off to you if you in your 40’s and can see Bitcoins potential 

You were the one I was thinking of as 20s. I think most on this thread are a lot older talking about retirement etc. Maybe being older makes people more aware of inflation and hence the importance of sound money. I'm not saying younger people can't understand the tech but they just seem too focused on getting on the property ladder to see a bigger picture.

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1 hour ago, jiltedjen said:

everyone I know including myself are mid to late 20’s 

i would consider anyone older to be extremely tech savy for an old person, hats off to you if you in your 40’s and can see Bitcoins potential 

I’m in my 40s and I only see potential in XRP with Codius and Ethereum for Smart contracts. I also love HashGraph.

Bitcoin is too old and slow for use in smart contracts. BTC is old school, and you need to reskill if you are stuck in the old Bitcoin world. Do it now are you’ll end up like one of these old coin collectors with a subscription to the Royal Mint.

BTW the kids of GenX who are in Gen Alpha are tougher and smarter than Millennials who were badly let down by the education system. A lot of Millennials are really going to struggle if they don’t reskill.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Mikhail Liebenstein

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20 minutes ago, Acid In The Punch Bowl said:

I don’t think it’s about being tech savvy, it’s more about being financially aware. I think a lot of the people who bought early on understood the problems with the economy and so understood what a sea change Bitcoin represents. From there the learnt what they needed to to use the tech. 

I think more recently a lot of tech savvy people have joined. 

I think many early investors in Bitcoin had previously studied gold and recognised that Bitcoin is just better gold. There were many people in the gold community that knew about fiat debt and the history of money. There are many "old" guys among them. They know that fiat never lasts more than about 40 years, because the interest+principle re-payments can never be fulfilled.The debt can never be extinguished , because in a money-as-debt system , repayment of all debt means no more money. The debt/velocity has to keep rising to pay previous debt+interest. Contraction or even Stagnation of new debt causes the system to "eat" itself and collapse. That usually takes about 40 years to flameout.

A lot of the recent MOMO crowd in crypto don't understand money, they are the fear and greed mob. The guys that can hold through all the FUD are the guys like the  ex-gold bugs that can grasp the tech. They know  where this ends , and keep their sights firmly on the big picture, ignoring the emotional rubbish.

There are also many gold-bugs who cannot get their heads around the new tech, they can't see it. They still deeply understand money , they just can't see that this new tech is money. 

 

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18 minutes ago, evetsm said:

I think many early investors in Bitcoin had previously studied gold and recognised that Bitcoin is just better gold. There were many people in the gold community that knew about fiat debt and the history of money. There are many "old" guys among them. They know that fiat never lasts more than about 40 years, because the interest+principle re-payments can never be fulfilled.

There are also many gold-bugs who cannot get their heads around the new tech, they can't see it. They still deeply understand money , they just can't see that this new tech is money. 

 

 

This is Bitcoin’s biggest problem. Most of the people heavily vested in it think it is acceptable to have similar speed and cost models to the Gold Market.

Looking at other Cryptos and the tech is closer to what you get with advanced payment solutions.

 

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12 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

 

This is Bitcoin’s biggest problem. Most of the people heavily vested in it think it is acceptable to have similar speed and cost models to the Gold Market.

Looking at other Cryptos and the tech is closer to what you get with advanced payment solutions.

 

Lightning network and similar layered solutions on top of completely secure decentralized,sound-money base  layer,  with instant speed and almost no cost.

Why obsess with CEO-governed coins that can be counterfeited/frozen/double spent. Unsound-money.?

 

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18 minutes ago, evetsm said:

Lightning network and similar layered solutions on top of completely secure decentralized,sound-money base  layer,  with instant speed and almost no cost.

Why obsess with CEO-governed coins that can be counterfeited/frozen/double spent. Unsound-money.?

Here's the lightning network whitepaper which clearly lays out what a clusterf*ck it really is. If your eyes have glazed over beforehand, just skip to page 49 and get straight into the 'Risks'. 

https://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf

Off chain solution are nothing more than centralisation vehicles designed to profit from deliberately broken blockchains. Neither are needed since there are coins that already scale on-chain without any fees. 

Edited by narco

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49 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

BTW the kids of GenX who are in Gen Alpha are tougher and smarter than Millennials who were badly let down by the education system. A lot of Millennials are really going to struggle if they don’t reskill.

Kids are smarter as a rule with each generation (Flynn Effect), but I think their knowledge and understanding is getting narrower. There are probably a lot of reasons for this, but a couple are due to changes in our education system: school exams switched to modules and the cost of university exploded. These both changed the incentives of education: Don't get distracted by things which aren't on the exam, as the next exam is a few months away, rather than a year or two. Don't pursue knowledge which doesn't have a certain payoff: take courses which maximise your earning potential and focus on them rather than your own interests.

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38 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

This is Bitcoin’s biggest problem.

Bitcoin's biggest problem is that it will never become twintopt. As long as states exist this is crucial.

The second biggest problem is how people will start setting up long term contracts when the price remains volatile.

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58 minutes ago, evetsm said:

I think many early investors in Bitcoin had previously studied gold and recognised that Bitcoin is just better gold. There were many people in the gold community that knew about fiat debt and the history of money. There are many "old" guys among them. They know that fiat never lasts more than about 40 years, because the interest+principle re-payments can never be fulfilled.The debt can never be extinguished , because in a money-as-debt system , repayment of all debt means no more money. The debt/velocity has to keep rising to pay previous debt+interest. Contraction or even Stagnation of new debt causes the system to "eat" itself and collapse. That usually takes about 40 years to flameout.

A lot of the recent MOMO crowd in crypto don't understand money, they are the fear and greed mob. The guys that can hold through all the FUD are the guys like the  ex-gold bugs that can grasp the tech. They know  where this ends , and keep their sights firmly on the big picture, ignoring the emotional rubbish.

There are also many gold-bugs who cannot get their heads around the new tech, they can't see it. They still deeply understand money , they just can't see that this new tech is money. 

 

gold has a use bitcoin does not. as it does not physically exist. 

people would trade their daily turd if it had deemed value. it`s as simple as that.  human emotions and needs are the only base layer. mainly greed and inflated ego`s built on sand. old money has an inflated ego with no substance also know as fractional reserve banking. new money crypto has an inflated ego, tech savvy that think they are smarter than old money.  ;)

 

 

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21 minutes ago, narco said:

there are coins that already scale on-chain without any fees. 

At the cost of decentralisation, immutability and trustlessness. We have money like that already, so what's the point?

 

1 hour ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

Bitcoin is too old and slow for use in smart contracts. BTC is old school, and you need to reskill if you are stuck in the old Bitcoin world. Do it now are you’ll end up like one of these old coin collectors with a subscription to the Royal Mint.

Bitcoin is one of the very few cryptos which has already implemented real world, useful, smart contracts. 'Hash Lock Time Contracts' are the fundamental technology which make Lightning work. You can't transact on Lightning without these smart contracts. Turing complete contracts on Bitcoin sidechains are coming. Google Rootstock. And then MimbleWimble which will make a large amount of alt-coins redundant. 

BTC is cutting edge.

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40 minutes ago, longgone said:

gold has a use bitcoin does not. as it does not physically exist. 

Do intellectual property rights physically exist? There might be a piece of paper saying you have the rights to a song, movie or book etc. but that's not what's really important.

Bitcoin will have some value as long as some people attribute some value to it.

Gold would still have value even if it was no longer demanded as a store of value, as it does have other uses.

Fiat money will be valued as long as functioning states declare to be twintopt.

The value of bitcoin seems to be the most precarious, but it's value has become self-fulfilling. Just as it's hard to see significant further adoption (everyone has heard of it, and in particular people with money generally don't seem interested), it's hard to see it's value return to zero.

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46 minutes ago, JawKnee said:

At the cost of decentralisation, immutability and trustlessness. We have money like that already, so what's the point?

 

Bitcoin is one of the very few cryptos which has already implemented real world, useful, smart contracts. 'Hash Lock Time Contracts' are the fundamental technology which make Lightning work. You can't transact on Lightning without these smart contracts. Turing complete contracts on Bitcoin sidechains are coming. Google Rootstock. And then MimbleWimble which will make a large amount of alt-coins redundant. 

BTC is cutting edge.

Bitcoin is heavily centralised by a handful of mining pools in communist states and Blockstream who have strangled the coin's development via censorship.

The problem is these mining pools and side chains have completely conflicting interests. Both are looking to be the primary collector of fees. It's a recipe for disaster which hodlers seem to be blissfully unaware of. 

In the end, the market will eventually choose a friction less, fee-less peer to peer system, with instant transactions, without mining, without in house fighting or conflicts. Simplicity will ultimately displace complexity. 

What is obvious is the sheer amount of lipstick being put on Bitcoin in order to keep it propped up. The bigger question people should be asking is, why all the effort? 

Edited by narco

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30 minutes ago, JawKnee said:

At the cost of decentralisation, immutability and trustlessness. We have money like that already, so what's the point?

 

Bitcoin is one of the very few cryptos which has already implemented real world, useful, smart contracts. 'Hash Lock Time Contracts' are the fundamental technology which make Lightning work. You can't transact on Lightning without these smart contracts. Turing complete contracts on Bitcoin sidechains are coming. Google Rootstock. And then MimbleWimble which will make a large amount of alt-coins redundant. 

BTC is cutting edge.

Not so much Lightning Network as Lightning NotWork in my book.

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Depends what problem you need fixing. 

I dont need need help with day to day transactions. I can do it with cash and card. 

I don’t need help thansfering money to a mate, I can do it with bank transfer or PayPal. 

I don’t need help with online purchases, I can do it with PayPal or card. 

International transfers could do with some streamlining, but also not a massive problem. 

The problem I have is I need a savings account. No currency seems worth saving in these days. Then along comes Bitcoin, a deflationary currency. As soon as I read about it I realized what a game changer it was. And since then it’s done exactly what it said on the tin. 

It seems Narco is waiting for some unicorn coin that solves the non problems that I first mentioned, but you missed it. Bitcoin was the invention.  

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1 hour ago, Kosmin said:

Kids are smarter as a rule with each generation (Flynn Effect), but I think their knowledge and understanding is getting narrower. There are probably a lot of reasons for this, but a couple are due to changes in our education system: school exams switched to modules and the cost of university exploded. These both changed the incentives of education: Don't get distracted by things which aren't on the exam, as the next exam is a few months away, rather than a year or two. Don't pursue knowledge which doesn't have a certain payoff: take courses which maximise your earning potential and focus on them rather than your own interests.

That is 100% correct.

The system under Blair had too much grade inflation to cover up reduced standards, and the Conservatives haven’t tackled this either, with the exception of London.

The Millennials have a real challenge as they suffered the impact of these shocking changes - the term Snowflake has arisen because it is largely apt and true, even if it is not their fault. I entirely get the point about too much specialisation, it can kill broader creativity and problem solving.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, narco said:

Here's the lightning network whitepaper which clearly lays out what a clusterf*ck it really is. If your eyes have glazed over beforehand, just skip to page 49 and get straight into the 'Risks'. 

https://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf

Off chain solution are nothing more than centralisation vehicles designed to profit from deliberately broken blockchains. Neither are needed since there are coins that already scale on-chain without any fees. 

Yes, LN is essentially an Elastoplast.

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19 minutes ago, Acid In The Punch Bowl said:

The problem I have is I need a savings account. No currency seems worth saving in these days. Then along comes Bitcoin, a deflationary currency. As soon as I read about it I realized what a game changer it was. And since then it’s done exactly what it said on the tin. 

What was said on the tin was "A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash"

Don't make the assumption that being deflationary is what primarily gives it value. It's real world capability as a currency is the only thing that gives it any form of intrinsic value. 

You better hope Bitcoin does deliver as cash in the real economy otherwise your "Savings" account will turn out to be a worthless selection of digits if it gets superseded. 

There are some pretty fatal flaws baked into Bitcoin's system and all I'm doing is opening people's eyes to it. If Bitcoin get's displaced over the coming years there's going to be a whole lot of pain out there (and on here). 

Edited by narco

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43 minutes ago, Acid In The Punch Bowl said:

Depends what problem you need fixing. 

I dont need need help with day to day transactions. I can do it with cash and card. 

I don’t need help thansfering money to a mate, I can do it with bank transfer or PayPal. 

I don’t need help with online purchases, I can do it with PayPal or card. 

International transfers could do with some streamlining, but also not a massive problem. 

The problem I have is I need a savings account. No currency seems worth saving in these days. Then along comes Bitcoin, a deflationary currency. As soon as I read about it I realized what a game changer it was. And since then it’s done exactly what it said on the tin. 

It seems Narco is waiting for some unicorn coin that solves the non problems that I first mentioned, but you missed it. Bitcoin was the invention.  

+1 

bitcoin as digital gold is what gives it value.

No alt-coin even acting like a 'true currency' would hold value anywhere like bitcoin, as deflationary currency is not good for currency, currency works better if it loses value so people spend it, that function is fulfilled by thousands upon thousands of existing fiat currencies 

Narco is hoping he finds the next bitcoin, and is hoping it acts like bitcoin (value store - goes up in value). And he is trying to talk down bitcoin as it does not function as a currency, and thus he sees is as a failure, thats his justification. He wants to see the massive massive gains that the early adopters of bitcoin have seen, that's more or less it. 

But of course he is wrong, no successful currency would act like a value store. And Narco will never see any gains chasing that mythical beast. There is no 'next bitcoin' its either bitcoin or just another fiat-like currency without a limited number.

And no currency could overtake bitcoin as a value store, or the whole concept of cryto as a value store would be destroyed the day bitcoin was overtaken. No one would ever trust it again as its properties of digital gold would be destroyed.

Wishing bad of bitcoin is talking the whole market down. The alt coins are driven by movements in bitcoins price. If you truely belived in cryto at all you would wish bitcoin all the success moving forward. Not being bitter than you missed the large initial gains, that those with the foresight and true understanding had originally.

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41 minutes ago, jiltedjen said:

Wishing bad of bitcoin is talking the whole market down. The alt coins are driven by movements in bitcoins price. If you truely belived in cryto at all you would wish bitcoin all the success moving forward. Not being bitter than you missed the large initial gains, that those with the foresight and true understanding had originally.

That's well and good for early adopters but it's risky business for those who are spending multiple thousands right now for a single token. It's a very dangerous space to be parking cash right now and it certainly isn't savings or digital gold. It's the ultimate speculative tulip and unless it get's some real adoption then we can expect more boom and busts. 

There is demand for a worldwide peer to peer digital decentralised currency and Bitcoin has opened the door for it. The problem is that Bitcoin isn't fit for this purpose and no amount of lipstick can fix it up. Nobody has missed out on anything since the potential for such a coin still clearly exists.

If what I'm saying is wrong, why are we all not using Bitcoin now for anything other than speculation? Its been around for a decade and experienced the biggest bubble that's ever been witnessed. Why does Bitcoin now have less real world usage than it did 4 years ago, even as public awareness increases?

Your whole argument here is "Digital Gold" so you've basically confirmed it can't perform for day to day transactions. How well has it performed as a savings account for those who bought within the last 6 months? What if it goes down 95% and stays there for a decade or longer?

Seriously... How much BTC skin in the game do you have? It must be pretty significant since you and evetsm seem to get pretty upset when I just point out some basic facts. You were recommending people buy at $8,500 last week. Hows that one working out?

Edited by narco

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