The Bubbly Bitcoin Thread -- Merged Threads

[Cosmic Apple]

31 minutes ago, ddd said:

What the haters and nocoiners don’t understand and appreciate yet is that Bitcoin is the new protocol of wealth. With each day and each new ATH for Bitcoin and it’s sibling altcoins that passes they are getting left further and further behind the curve. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Now imagine having to explain to your grandchildren why your total wealth is 0.0000001 BTC. 

Get on the housing bitcoin ladder now before you miss the boat!

[dgul]

2 hours ago, markyh said:

Ok really dumb question from a Bitcoin / Crypto holder and a ex (an ZEC current) miner.

How do I get a message onto the blockchain?

 

Bitcoin isn't designed for this.

Eth is.  You can put whatever data you want on the blockchain.

Recently it's been running at about 10Eth / mb.  I think it might be a bit higher at the moment -- maybe 20 Eth.

[obviously most people don't store big data on the blockchain -- you'd normally store the hash of a file on the blockchain]

[data is free to read.  This is obvious when you think about it, but best to make it explicit]

[It has been often said that the data storage cost is disconnected from the Eth price -- so as the price (in $s) goes up, the storage cost (in Eth) goes down, resulting in the $ data price being stable.  In practice, the price is going up significantly, just not as fast as the Eth.]

[You can store stuff other than raw data on the blockchain, such as computations.  This is what makes Eth (sort-of) useful for smart-contracts, etc]

Edited December 15, 2017 by dgul

[taderuk]

Our bit coin who art in the blockchain

Crypto be thy name

 

Thy trillion dollar market cap come thy will be done, on earth as it is in the ether

Give us this day our daily increase

Forgive us our selling, as we forgive those who sell against us

Lead us not into Alt coins and deliver us from bitcoin cash

 

For thine is the increase, to infinity and beyond.

 

Forever and ever

 

HODL

 

 

 

 

[dgul]

5 hours ago, fru-gal said:

It would be interesting if cryptos ended up being a transfer of wealth from the older generation to the young ones, with boomers having to pay £500k plus to some spotty teenager in order to get a place on the "crypto" ladder .

The demand for crypto that's pushing up the price is the assumption that it'll be used for some/many/all transactions in the future.  That's $14 trillion in the USA per day, so if there are only 21 million Bitcoins, and 90% of Bitcoins are tied up, and there are 10 transactions per Bitcoin per day (=velocity) then that makes each Bitcoin worth $700,000 (not really, but that is sort-of the maths)*.

It might be nice to buy Bitcoins as a speculative punt that the future looks like the above, but there is no point in the Bitcoins ultimately being used to store value.  You might use them a bit like this, but once they're fully utilised the value isn't going to go up particularly (it will slightly due to coin wastage, and it will broadly follow global GDP if it is used globally).  So there isn't any need for anyone to actually hold £500k in Bitcoin.

Now, those pensioners.  They don't really have much money in the bank.  Sure, they've got a bit.  But their monthly income comes (from government or from) shares they have in companies that sell real things to real people that they need or from loans they've made to companies (bonds) that get rolled over occasionally.  Their income pretty-much moves with the UK and world economy -- there isn't such a thing as Bitcoins taking over from £s so they're left with nothing (well an income of £20k pa, which, due to Bitcoin related devaluation of all currencies will only buy a pea).  They'll just get the income they get now relative to workers, just in Bitcon (in that particular view of the future).

The transfer of wealth that Bitcoin will bring is from normal people working to people who've stockpiled Bitcoins early.  This is only a few millennials.  It is quite a few strange groups in China / Korea.

[* and, of course, that is why TPTB won't allow Bitcoin to succeed.  It takes too much power away from them.]

[goldbug9999]

1 hour ago, dgul said:

You might use them a bit like this, but once they're fully utilised the value isn't going to go up particularly (it will slightly due to coin wastage, and it will broadly follow global GDP if it is used globally).  So there isn't any need for anyone to actually hold £500k in Bitcoin.

I just cant get my head round this baked in assumption that the end game is a rush for exit and exchange for fiat, if anything the opposite is more likely (*): the end game is the fiat holders will be rushing to exit into bitcoin/crypto. Its probably this that separates the bubble proponents from us cypto maximalists.

Bitcoin doesn't need to keep going up dramatically forever, it can level off to nice 5-10% a year (i.e. just capturing the natural year on year productivity increases) and it will still be far and way the best place to park large amounts of money.

If it gets to the point where bitcoin is £500k it will probably be the safest place to store £millions, surely someone would need a very good reason to use some other store of value.

(*) there quite likely will be a rush to exit crypto at some point but this isn't the end game state, its merely a buying opportunity  

Edited December 15, 2017 by goldbug9999

[dgul]

2 hours ago, goldbug9999 said:

I just cant get my head round this baked in assumption that the end game is a rush for exit and exchange for fiat, if anything the opposite is more likely (*): the end game is the fiat holders will be rushing to exit into bitcoin/crypto. Its probably this that separates the bubble proponents from us cypto maximalists.

Bitcoin doesn't need to keep going up dramatically forever, it can level off to nice 5-10% a year (i.e. just capturing the natural year on year productivity increases) and it will still be far and way the best place to park large amounts of money.

If it gets to the point where bitcoin is £500k it will probably be the safest place to store £millions, surely someone would need a very good reason to use some other store of value.

(*) there quite likely will be a rush to exit crypto at some point but this isn't the end game state, its merely a buying opportunity  

No-one stores millions.  Well, maybe bank robbers or drug barons or something.

Some people might store money in the bank (not many at the millions level).  But that is just the other side of the trade of the money being lent out to people, who then pay it back with interest (I know that with reserve banking that is nowhere near at 1:1, but that is a nuance -- the cash clearly isn't being held in the form of notes in a bank vault, keeping them out of the economy)

Most 'wealth' isn't in the form of money, but is in the form of assets, such as bonds, shares, property, etc.  And that is the 'safe' place to store wealth, because in the long term it at least maintains a value -- cash doesn't necessarily maintain value.

To suggest that 'storing wealth as Bitcoin is the only logical store of value' is a perverse anti-logic, that would only make sense during the most dreadful of recessions.  And there it would actually have the effect of removing currency from circulation (as there is a limited supply), which would itself feed a positive-feedback of massive inflation (in essentials) / deflation (in stuff you can't afford) situation that would kill the world economy.

Your 'rush to the exit to exchange fiat for Bitcoin' doesn't make sense either.  There isn't wealth in fiat to convert.  The assets underlying that wealth would merely start to be valued in Bitcoin rather than fiat, 'automatically' transferring the 'wealth' into a Bitcoin equivalent value.  Similarly, in the 'Bitcoin takes over scenario' income just starts being paid in Bitcoin, the vast majority of which is then spent in month (just like now with fiat).  No-one fights for the exit.  They just start exchanging Bitcoins at every point in the income/expenditure cycle.

I can see that there is a perceived value in Bitcoin -- a decentralised currency that is outside of the control of TPTB, but the end result would, for the vast majority of people the vast majority of the time, be exactly the same as it is now.  It doesn't matter if the monthly pay is 1Bitcoin or 20,000 Satoshi -- it just gets exchanged for goods in month.  

The thing that I do think is, TPTB don't like Bitcoin because it removes their power.  They'll do things to remove it from circulation.  Frankly, I believe that the current explosion in value is part of that removal.  (that is, when/if it crashes there'll be such revulsion amongst the general population that it'll kill crypto for a generation).

[goldbug9999]

6 minutes ago, dgul said:

No-one stores millions.  Well, maybe bank robbers or drug barons or something.

Well theres a lot of extremely rich "noone"'s buying these gold ETFs: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/etfs/top-gold-etfs/

Quote

Most 'wealth' isn't in the form of money, but is in the form of assets, such as bonds, shares, property, etc.  And that is the 'safe' place to store wealth, because in the long term it at least maintains a value -- cash doesn't necessarily maintain value.

The reason all these things are popular is because fiat loses value over time, bitcoin will not because theres little inflation. Doing nothing more than absorbing fiat inflation will give it a baseline nominal appreciation of 3-5% a year which will beat 90% of other asset classes.

[dgul]

19 minutes ago, goldbug9999 said:

Well theres a lot of extremely rich "noone"'s buying these gold ETFs: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/etfs/top-gold-etfs/

 

There's about $5 trillion worth of gold in the world.  Most of that is in jewellery etc.  About 1% is in the form of 'casual invested gold' like ETFs.  So, about $50 billion.

Total wealth in the world $250 trillion.  The wealth stored in gold ETFs is minimal.

24 minutes ago, goldbug9999 said:

The reason all these things are popular is because fiat loses value over time, bitcoin will not because theres little inflation. Doing nothing more than absorbing fiat inflation will give it a baseline nominal appreciation of 3-5% a year which will beat 90% of other asset classes.

I don't get your logic.  There is no such thing as 'absorbing fiat inflation'.  I guess you mean that there's a 'baseline nominal appreciation', as the world's economy grows by 3-5%, which means that we have more stuff being produced, or stuff is produced more economically, so that each Bitcoin can buy more stuff (everything else being equal).  Anyway, I hope that's what you mean because it is sort-of positive, even though it is a flawed logic based on the Bitcoin economy being as good as the fiat economy, only with Bitcoins.

I think the opposite is true.  As people store wealth in Bitcoin (a good thing, from your logic), there are fewer Bitcoins available to use in transactions.  Assuming that the transaction 'value' is constant, and transaction numbers are constant, this reduction in 'floating' Bitcoins available would mean that each transaction would have a lower available share of Bitcoins, which is the same as 'cost fewer Bitcoins'*.  This would be called 'deflation'.  Now, in a deflation you don't want to spend your stored wealth as it gets worth more (can buy more goods) each year.  So everyone that can saves more.  This eventually results in a new economic equilibrium, where the transactions keep getting lower in order to keep the deflation (and incentive to save) under control.  The point being that this economic equilibrium isn't as high as it is now (because transaction levels are driven down) -- so you don't get the 3-5% in appreciation as the economy grows.

This is why fiat currencies were invented -- to stop runaway deflation.  They might be dealing with problems badly at the moment (because they mucked up in 2000, essentially), but IMO they're absolutely desperate to avoid deflation as that really is the monster you can't control.

[You also get a deflation that comes from lost crypto.  This is actually a significant effect (so far lost coins runs at about 3% pa), but I'm ignoring it in this analysis, as it might be that everyone will use special tech that makes loss much less likely]

[jiltedjen]

2 minutes ago, dgul said:

There's about $5 trillion worth of gold in the world.  Most of that is in jewellery etc.  About 1% is in the form of 'casual invested gold' like ETFs.  So, about $50 billion.

Total wealth in the world $250 trillion.  The wealth stored in gold ETFs is minimal.

 

due to paper gold, and the gold price suppression. 

If gold was not in effect manipulated downwards, then 2008 would of been the reckoning and gold would of been 10 to 50 times more valuable, extremely deep recession but a lot of the underlying problems would of been solved, and we would be just about starting to go on a massive healthy economic boom around now, not this debt fuelled nightmare. 

The same cannot be done with bitcoin, so bitcoin can easily soak up the lost value of fiat currencies each year. 
It's hard to comprehend that, as gold has not functioned as a true store of wealth for say 50 years now. 

Bitcoin is acting like it is, as its a pressure relief valve. Returning scarcity, and individual sovereignty on your own future.  

 

[goldbug9999]

21 minutes ago, dgul said:

I don't get your logic.  There is no such thing as 'absorbing fiat inflation'.  I guess you mean that there's a 'baseline nominal appreciation', as the world's economy grows by 3-5%, which means that we have more stuff being produced,

Fiat money supply increases over time lets say 3-5% annually hence then the price of something with a stable level of demand rises by that same amount, we call this process "inflation", but you know that right ?.  Productivity and growth only matter in as much as they tend to drive monetary inflation to higher levels which means that an asset of limited supply will appreciate even faster.

Its all about money supply though - more fiat in circulation means a higher price for bitcoin.

Quote

This is why fiat currencies were invented -- to stop runaway deflation.  

So where was this runaway deflation is the 50s and 60's when we were on the gold standard ?, the decades where standards of living across the world in developed countries increased faster than any other time since ?

The actual effect has been to allow the asset rich and the banking sector to capture all most all of then new wealth created in the last 50 years or so.

Edited December 15, 2017 by goldbug9999

[dgul]

4 minutes ago, jiltedjen said:

due to paper gold, and the gold price suppression. 

If gold was not in effect manipulated downwards, then 2008 would of been the reckoning and gold would of been 10 to 50 times more valuable, extremely deep recession but a lot of the underlying problems would of been solved, and we would be just about starting to go on a massive healthy economic boom around now, not this debt fuelled nightmare. 

The same cannot be done with bitcoin, so bitcoin can easily soak up the lost value of fiat currencies each year. 
It's hard to comprehend that, as gold has not functioned as a true store of wealth for say 50 years now. 

Bitcoin is acting like it is, as its a pressure relief valve. Returning scarcity, and individual sovereignty on your own future.  

The purpose of gold reserves isn't to store wealth, it is to allow the state to sell gold as the price rises to keep the price under control and to stop it forming a refuge, which then results in runaway deflation as described for Bitcoin earlier.

The state (or a coalition of states) could do the same with Bitcoin by buying it up during normal periods and then selling into price rises to stop it forming a refuge.

But -- they needed to do this with gold because it was historically (since the dawn of history) used as a store of wealth, and the state had previously actually used it as currency.  Still, eventually the problem has more-or-less gone away, because few people will turn to gold these days as a store of wealth (maybe some, but not my mum, say).  Hence GB selling all the gold reserves in the BoE.

They don't need to do this with crypto.  They can nip Bitcoin (and the other currents) in the bud by declaring it as incompatible with money laundering regs, except under very exacting circumstances.  They could manage this by stopping people from depositing / withdrawing from anything but approved exchanges.  Anyway, I don't think they'll need to do this as the vast majority of people will just carry on using fiat.  The benefits of Bitcoin (and others) just don't really migrate into real-world use.  

[They will do the KYC constraints for Bitcoin anyway, as it is currently mainly used for illegal purposes (you know, pretty much the only actual purchases using Bitcoin).]

[dgul]

Just now, goldbug9999 said:

Fiat money supply increases over time lets say 3-5% annually hence then the price of something with a stable level of demand rises by that same amount, we call this process "inflation", but you know that right ?.  Productivity and growth only matter in as much as they tend to drive monetary inflation to higher levels which means that an asset of limited supply will appreciate even faster.

Yes -- but you don't say why Bitcoin increases in value by that much.  Oh, I suppose it increases by that in fiat terms, but that's irrelevant (you're defining inflation with respect to another currency -- that isn't inflation).  Inflation is measured against purchasing power of a currency -- for Bitcoin to gain in value it can only be because you can buy more stuff with a Bitcoin, which (given currency supply constraints) can only mean because said stuff is easier to make or has lost value itself (like what happens with old IP).

4 minutes ago, goldbug9999 said:

Its all about money supply though - more fiat in circulation means a higher price for bitcoin.

Your end-point is that fiat doesn't matter any more.  Bitcoin becomes measured in 'ability to buy stuff'.  If storing Bitcoin isn't something that will 'buy you more stuff' then you'll invest in things that will, like lending to a company making a new gadget that people will want to buy (and we're back to shares, bonds and property to store wealth).

5 minutes ago, goldbug9999 said:

So where was this runaway deflation is the 50s and 60's ?, the decades where standards of living across the world in developed countries increased faster than any other time since ?

Fiat came along in the 19th century (with a few false starts before early 20th).  Before that ruinous deflation, followed by ruinous inflation was typical for the economy.

7 minutes ago, goldbug9999 said:

Fiat money supply increases over time lets say 3-5% annually hence then the price of something with a stable level of demand rises by that same amount, we call this process "inflation", but you know that right ?.  Productivity and growth only matter in as much as they tend to drive monetary inflation to higher levels which means that an asset of limited supply will appreciate even faster.

Its all about money supply though - more fiat in circulation means a higher price for bitcoin.

So where was this runaway deflation is the 50s and 60's ?, the decades where standards of living across the world in developed countries increased faster than any other time since ?

The actual effect has been to allow the asset rich and the banking sector to capture all most all of then new wealth created in the last 50 years or so.

Well, yes.  But your chosen solution is to allow you (actually Chinese and Korean miners) to capture almost all of the new wealth created.  There doesn't seem to be an advantage for the average guy.

[goldbug9999]

13 minutes ago, dgul said:

Yes -- but you don't say why Bitcoin increases in value by that much.  Oh, I suppose it increases by that in fiat terms, but that's irrelevant

Its not irrelevant. You stated earlier that bitcoin holders will be looking to exit eventually, why would they if any other investment vehicle has to yield say 3% minimum just to keep pace ?.

To summarise:

There is no reason for crypto holders to exit while crypto and fiat coexist because crypto always makes nominal gains vs fiat over time.

If/when we exist in a crypto only environment with runaway deflation then there is also no reason to exit to other vehicles unless they are going to give a stellar return.

Edited December 15, 2017 by goldbug9999

[jiltedjen]

27 minutes ago, goldbug9999 said:

 

If/when we exist in a crypto only environment with runaway deflation then there is also no reason to exit to other vehicles unless they are going to give a stellar return.

we should all be scrambling to invest in new fresh companies with new fresh ideas and good returns, but we are not. Real growth is pretty poor, and the returns in the stock markets more or less just reflect the destruction of value of fiat. 

Why?, well there are too many zombies with unfair boomer pensions to support. Too many bad-bets have been bailed out, too many smeg heads loaded up on debt, value given away to bankers, boomer-era trade unions driven away years of investment into this country, forced to rely on corrupt bankers. 

Human progress has more or less stopped in the UK. 

Yes bitcoin will finally cause the stock market crash, and house price crash, and it will be very painful for a lot of people. But once we are cleared of the zombies, the boomers and bankers are forced to actually contribute (pay as you go NHS for their boomer age group etc), the economy will start fresh with new ideas, real growth, rid of the unfair criminal commitments forced upon the youth of today.

Bitcoin may reach 100k or even 500k a coin. Then stabilise. Then when the young companies start to grown without the dead weight of previous greedy generations commitments, the returns will also be stellar there. A youth with actual spending money? not tied down my massive housing costs. There will be better returns in the real economy then.  

Bitcoin is the bloodless revolution. Its a wealth transfer from the old to the young. 
Just a shame the oldies will never allow that in a million years.

Even reading the BBC news today, its clear that people are itching to get some bans in place to kill sentiment in one big swoop. 


 

Edited December 16, 2017 by jiltedjen

[adamLancs]

dgul you make some sense but I can't see the transition being orderly like you assume. So far it's not, first comers are significantly wealthier than late-comers already, a trend which should continue. 

You don't factor in that governments can't print Bitcoins which for me is a game-changer. It will force the markets to re-balance towards true value measured in "desire to part with Bitcoin that stores value vs. desire to part with £ that depreciates rapidly".

It's gonna mess with a lot of boomers, retirement funds, pensions etc these are gonna be the last things to convert... nobody's gonna be parting with Bitcoin for them shitcoins $$$ they will be worthless long before the adoption curve is finished.

In 2013 there was a popular term "bagholder" that applied to anyone left holding a lot of shitcoins... I can imagine how attractive being a $$$ or £££ bagholder will look when even 20% of the population is in Bitcoins... it's gonna be a RUSH for the exit. A RUSH.

In terms of property... you are right that exchange will transition to Bitcoins but as mentioned above it will not be seamless. Firstly the market demand will like receive a royal shake-up and the property ladder madness will come to an end as Bitcoin offers a decent return and governments have to tax appropriately in order to get Bitcoins to spend, no more funny business.

It will still be worthwhile to invest in other assets, land, property etc. but a lot of the fake gains will disappear. The world economies will likely be leaner, healthier, and more productive as people go back to making things happen rather than watching things happen.

[adamLancs]

Some perspective... this is 1999 money btw... you can 3-4x it easily... we've barely got going yet.

[Greg Bowman]

8 hours ago, adamLancs said:

dgul you make some sense but I can't see the transition being orderly like you assume. So far it's not, first comers are significantly wealthier than late-comers already, a trend which should continue. 

You don't factor in that governments can't print Bitcoins which for me is a game-changer. It will force the markets to re-balance towards true value measured in "desire to part with Bitcoin that stores value vs. desire to part with £ that depreciates rapidly".

It's gonna mess with a lot of boomers, retirement funds, pensions etc these are gonna be the last things to convert... nobody's gonna be parting with Bitcoin for them shitcoins $$$ they will be worthless long before the adoption curve is finished.

In 2013 there was a popular term "bagholder" that applied to anyone left holding a lot of shitcoins... I can imagine how attractive being a $$$ or £££ bagholder will look when even 20% of the population is in Bitcoins... it's gonna be a RUSH for the exit. A RUSH.

In terms of property... you are right that exchange will transition to Bitcoins but as mentioned above it will not be seamless. Firstly the market demand will like receive a royal shake-up and the property ladder madness will come to an end as Bitcoin offers a decent return and governments have to tax appropriately in order to get Bitcoins to spend, no more funny business.

It will still be worthwhile to invest in other assets, land, property etc. but a lot of the fake gains will disappear. The world economies will likely be leaner, healthier, and more productive as people go back to making things happen rather than watching things happen.

Or.......http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/jordan-belfort-bitcoin-scam-cryptocurrency-market-wolf-of-wall-street-us-a8112161.html

[adamLancs]

1 hour ago, Greg Bowman said:

Or.......http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/jordan-belfort-bitcoin-scam-cryptocurrency-market-wolf-of-wall-street-us-a8112161.html

Yep. It's kind of sad in a way, if this really is the biggest bubble in history, then people like this have something to answer for, don't they?  I mean let's just assume this is the biggest bubble in history... let's humour this notion cause it's a popular one...

Guys on Wall St take 1%, 2%, 3% fees from people to make their money grow. They are supposed to be at the top of their game. Investors, Analysts, Strategists, Gurus, Experts... they give themselves lots of fancy names now but it comes to this...

They know everything about finance and economics and markets and tell their clients which trends to follow and where the money is. That's their job. Anyone can invest in fkn treasury bills they don't need some monkey with a suit to do it, right?. No, these guys are PAID to ride the waves. If you're a surfer, you're looking for the biggest and phattest waves. If you're an investor, you're looking for the biggest and phattest waves. No difference.

They make news channels specifically to tell people all over the world where the money is. They're on there all day. This is their life, their forte.

Now get this, lol, if Mr. Wolf is right...

They missed out on the biggest bubble in history of the world. THE BIGGEST BUBBLE IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD LOL

Where were they? LOL

LOL. Would you not be pissed off, if you were one of their clients? They are on the phone to these guys every day, asking why they missed this. They cannot believe the returns that these guys have cost them, the missed opportunity. They are literally on the phone right now.

We are talking 1000000% here, from 2011.

50000% from 2013. It was ALL OVER THE NEWS in 2013. These guys had their eyes shut, and tiny minds closed singing LALALALALA and they cost their clients SO MUCH MONEY. I would be so annoyed at them right now if I was their client.

But I can bet you one thing. They still took their fee. They have NO CLUE what's going on, but they will sit there on CNBC with a big smile on their face because they still got their fee. All those years, all those gains. Gone, but they still get their fee. So it's very sad, but not for them, for their clients and the people who listened to them, trusted them and were ultimately failed by their ignorance.

Edited December 16, 2017 by adamLancs

[kudukid]

37 minutes ago, adamLancs said:

Yep. It's kind of sad in a way, if this really is the biggest bubble in history, then people like this have something to answer for, don't they?  I mean let's just assume this is the biggest bubble in history... let's humour this notion cause it's a popular one...

Guys on Wall St take 1%, 2%, 3% fees from people to make their money grow. They are supposed to be at the top of their game. Investors, Analysts, Strategists, Gurus, Experts... they give themselves lots of fancy names now but it comes to this...

They know everything about finance and economics and markets and tell their clients which trends to follow and where the money is. That's their job. Anyone can invest in fkn treasury bills they don't need some monkey with a suit to do it, right?. No, these guys are PAID to ride the waves. If you're a surfer, you're looking for the biggest and phattest waves. If you're an investor, you're looking for the biggest and phattest waves. No difference.

They make news channels specifically to tell people all over the world where the money is. They're on there all day. This is their life, their forte.

Now get this, lol, if Mr. Wolf is right...

They missed out on the biggest bubble in history of the world. THE BIGGEST BUBBLE IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD LOL

Where were they? LOL

LOL. Would you not be pissed off, if you were one of their clients? They are on the phone to these guys every day, asking why they missed this. They are cannot believe the returns that these guys have cost them, the missed opportunity. They are literally on the phone right now.

We are talking 1000000% here, from 2011.

50000% from 2013. It was ALL OVER THE NEWS in 2013. These guys had their eyes shut, and tiny minds closed singing LALALALALA and they cost their clients SO MUCH MONEY. I would be so annoyed at them right now if I was their client.

But I can bet you one thing. They still took their fee. They have NO CLUE what's going on, but they will sit there on CNBC with a big smile on their face because they still got their fee. All those years, all those gains. Gone, but they still get their fee. So it's very sad, but not for them, for their clients and the people who listened to them, trusted them and were ultimately failed by their ignorance.

Just Maybe they realise the massive risk of it all going to 0 very quickly.

Yes cryptocurrencies maybe the future but it really doesn't have to be bitcoin.

 

In all probability it won't be.

 

[adamLancs]

25 minutes ago, kudukid said:

Just Maybe they realise the massive risk of it all going to 0 very quickly.

Yes cryptocurrencies maybe the future but it really doesn't have to be bitcoin.

 

In all probability it won't be.

It didn't stop them in the dot-com bubble. Technology is just proving too fast for them so they put up a Bitcoin ticker and continue on with their mainstream maze of mirrors. They just cannot keep up with the trends. They are going to continue to miss where the money is at because they haven't even caught onto Bitcoin yet. Nearly everybody needs do a second take on Bitcoin just because it's a lot to take in, but these guys are supposed to be at the top of their game. Even now they are just in this phase of enlightenment. They had their eyes shut on this. They cannot ignore the phone calls from pissed off clients, it is hilarious to watch them try to understand what's going on.

It's not just one bubble either. There's like 50 of them. More!

Litecoin 30000% since 2013. Ether 175000% since 2014. Iota, it's a lot. It's a lot. it's insane. Monero, Dash, I mean look at the top 10. They've been around. It was all happening in 2013 and 2014.

If Mr. Wolf is right, they didn't just miss the biggest bubble in the history of the world. They missed 50 of them. LOL

I understand most people missed it, but these guys are paid to be on the ball. They are paid to scout new trends. They charge FEES every year. Sometimes 3% or more! They took 30%+ of clients money over the last 6 or 7 years in some cases and they got NOTHING. NOTHING. It doesn't even compare. They are supposed to have monkeys reporting back to them spotting these things, and let's face it they can afford a lot of monkeys. They COMPLETELY missed this. I would want my money back. I would be so annoyed right now.

Edited December 16, 2017 by adamLancs

[markyh]

Reading the last 10 hrs of posts, one thing to say. Crypto must be booming in price again this week (which it is, compared to any other asset class) as all the arguments have started again, almost a complete repeat of 2 weeks ago. Tulips, Bubbles, Government Intervention.

So where are we? Well woke up to some more nice gains in the last 24 hrs.  Up £3100 to £94950.  +3.37%  So this week has brought gainz since Sunday of 14.69%. a stealthy 2.45% a day on average.

That'll do. Now to see what CME futures bring next week. 

 

[adamLancs]

Bitcoin was all over the news in 2013.

If you're a professional... that was when you spot the trend. That's if you're lazy and you get your information from the TV from your $3,000,000 office with a view.

These guys are paid to balance the risk/reward. Even a 1% stake would now make up 50% of their ENTIRE PORTFOLIO and double everybody's money.

I cannot believe after taking all that money in fees, so much money from clients, they can miss the biggest bubble in the history of the world (their words) and then write about tulips like they have a clue. It beggars belief. I would be so annoyed to be on their client list and looking at them grinning like that. It's incredible.

[Pitchfork]

11 minutes ago, adamLancs said:

Bitcoin was all over the news in 2013.

If you're a professional... that was when you spot the trend. That's if you're lazy and you get your information from the TV from your $3,000,000 office with a view.

These guys are paid to balance the risk/reward. Even a 1% stake would now make up 50% of their ENTIRE PORTFOLIO and double everybody's money.

I cannot believe after taking all that money in fees, so much money from clients, they can miss the biggest bubble in the history of the world (their words) and then write about tulips like they have a clue. It beggars belief. I would be so annoyed to be on their client list and looking at them grinning like that. It's incredible.

Lets say its 2013 and a pint of milk costs £1 and a Bitcoin is currently worth £1

2013 - everyone piles into Bitcoin and I mean everyone. Young, old, rich poor, UK and the rest of the world.

2017 - everyone is well chuffed because one Bitcoin is now worth £1m.

How much does a pint of milk cost?

[GreenDevil]

9 minutes ago, Pitchfork said:

Lets say its 2013 and a pint of milk costs £1 and a Bitcoin is currently worth £1

2013 - everyone piles into Bitcoin and I mean everyone. Young, old, rich poor, UK and the rest of the world.

2017 - everyone is well chuffed because one Bitcoin is now worth £1m.

How much does a pint of milk cost?

£1.

In fiat. 1 satoshi in BTC>

[markyh]

8 minutes ago, Pitchfork said:

Lets say its 2013 and a pint of milk costs £1 and a Bitcoin is currently worth £1

2013 - everyone piles into Bitcoin and I mean everyone. Young, old, rich poor, UK and the rest of the world.

2017 - everyone is well chuffed because one Bitcoin is now worth £1m.

How much does a pint of milk cost?

I think it's 90 Satoshi allowing for 10% deflation since 2013.