Graduates With Thirds Get £9,000 To Be Teachers As Number Of Job Applicants Collapses

[interestrateripoff]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2466753/Graduates-THIRDS-9-000-teachers-number-candidates-collapses.html

Bursaries to be offered in exchange for the worst possible honours degree

They are designed to tempt those with 'relevant' degrees into the profession

Michael Gove removed the bursaries for two years ago to raise standards

But the sheer lack of appropriate candidates has forced a U-turn

Should we be having people with 3rds teaching? If you can't get a decent degree I really don't think teaching others is for you. If you can't be bothered to put the effort into your own education and read why the feck are you going to be bothered about the little dears you are teaching?

Am I being a little too harsh here? Can people with 3rds be successful teachers?

Or more reward for failure?

[Si1]

lot of unemployed qualified teachers floating around graduated last few years AFAIK

very disappointed considering how well financially they would have done under last government

[Frank Hovis]

Sounds fine to me, I knew some clever people who got thirds because they were only prepared to devote a certain amount of time to their studies. There was the "nines club" for people who got a third every year; the most famous member is Carol Vorderman.

IMO you're more likely to get a rounded person who will be a good teacher if they have a third than if have they have a first and a PhD.

[StainlessSteelCat]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2466753/Graduates-THIRDS-9-000-teachers-number-candidates-collapses.html

Should we be having people with 3rds teaching? If you can't get a decent degree I really don't think teaching others is for you. If you can't be bothered to put the effort into your own education and read why the feck are you going to be bothered about the little dears you are teaching?

Am I being a little too harsh here? Can people with 3rds be successful teachers?

Or more reward for failure?

I guess they might have an idea of some of the difficulties that kids can have learning stuff. People get thirds for all kinds of reasons, not just for dossing/being thick. Agree with the above, most of those with firsts were socially inept nerds when I was at uni.

But I suspect they might struggle credibility wise in a class of A level students when asked what they got though. My class would have eaten any teacher with a third alive if they'd found out. Still I guess you could lie, like most people apparently do on their job applications.

Edited October 19, 2013 by StainlessSteelCat

[ntb]

Back in 1985 when I graduated it was mostly those with thirds and the drop outs that went on to do pgce's and on to teaching. I suspect it's the norm.

[Lagarde's Drift]

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

[bearwithasorehead]

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Those who can't teach teach teachers

[Frank Hovis]

Those who can't teach teach teachers

Those who can't teach teach PE.

[Si1]

<br />Back in 1985 when I graduated it was mostly those with thirds and the drop outs that went on to do pgce's and on to teaching. I suspect it's the norm.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

that was one of the frightening things about the excessive pay awards to teachers under labour, the poor achievers who dropped into teaching out of personal failure suddenly became the nouveaux riches, I'm sure free money plus overstated opinion of one's intellect contributes to pushing up house prices

[Si1]

<br />I guess they might have an idea of some of the difficulties that kids can have learning stuff.  People get thirds for all kinds of reasons, not just for dossing/being thick.  Agree with the above, most of those with firsts were socially inept nerds when I was at uni. <br /><br />But I suspect they might struggle credibility wise in a class of A level students when asked what they got though. My class would have eaten any teacher with a third alive if they'd found out.  Still I guess you could lie, like most people apparently do on their job applications.<br />

<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />I  suspect there is a national need for people to teach in everyday secondary education at GCSE and lower, I suspect degree grade is unimportant compared to soft skills here Edited October 19, 2013 by Si1

[Steppenpig]

You don't need to be academically brilliant to be a teacher, you just need to know the syllabus better than your students. That's (probably) pretty easy, once you've been teaching it for a couple of years.

Of the various teachers I had, I would say that their level of brilliance had virtually nothing to do with how good they were.

[macbeth79]

Sounds fine to me, I knew some clever people who got thirds because they were only prepared to devote a certain amount of time to their studies. There was the "nines club" for people who got a third every year; the most famous member is Carol Vorderman.

IMO you're more likely to get a rounded person who will be a good teacher if they have a third than if have they have a first and a PhD.

she may be very hot, but would you want her to teach your kids maths.

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

You don't need to be academically brilliant to be a teacher, you just need to know the syllabus better than your students. That's (probably) pretty easy, once you've been teaching it for a couple of years.

Of the various teachers I had, I would say that their level of brilliance had virtually nothing to do with how good they were.

+1. Less techincal skills required, more teaching skills required. Someone with a third in maths has got far more technical skills in maths than are needed to teach GCSE maths. What's more important is the ability to inspire the kids and help them learn.

Anyway, I thought the general idea was on here that teachers are overpaid and have a cushy life. If you want to slash the salaries, you're going to be recruiting more dross.

[Si1]

+1. Less techincal skills required, more teaching skills required. Someone with a third in maths has got far more technical skills in maths than are needed to teach GCSE maths. What's more important is the ability to inspire the kids and help them learn.

Anyway, I thought the general idea was on here that teachers are overpaid and have a cushy life. If you want to slash the salaries, you're going to be recruiting more dross.

Not really

Academies, FE colleges and private schools can use unqualified people to teach, in other words the truly talented can sidestep the pgce requirement and get paid very well straightaway

[Si1]

I bet the militant lefties unions don't help to promote the job role either

[bearwithasorehead]

Not really

Academies, FE colleges and private schools can use unqualified people to teach, in other words the truly talented can sidestep the pgce requirement and get paid very well straightaway

Okay, but in practice this rarely happens, or if it does then only temporarily or in niche subjects or with teachers that entered the profession many years ago. Any edu establishment in UK is going to take a qualified teacher over an non-qual.

[The Knimbies who say No]

Sounds fine to me, I knew some clever people who got thirds because they were only prepared to devote a certain amount of time to their studies. There was the "nines club" for people who got a third every year; the most famous member is Carol Vorderman.

IMO you're more likely to get a rounded person who will be a good teacher if they have a third than if have they have a first and a PhD.

Using lack of attainment as a benchmark for competence has some flaws, I must say.

My three outstanding teachers at school were the three with doctorates.

[Si1]

Okay, but in practice this rarely happens, or if it does then only temporarily or in niche subjects or with teachers that entered the profession many years ago. Any edu establishment in UK is going to take a qualified teacher over an non-qual.

A non qualified brilliant intellect with a 1st class degree to get able A level students into Oxbridge and to promote unabashed academic excellence, over a qualified teacher with a shtt degree instead?

(Actually agree with you with respect to the existing culture but I think Gove is changing that)

Edited October 19, 2013 by Si1

[bearwithasorehead]

A non qualified brilliant intellect with a 1st class degree to get able A level students into Oxbridge and to promote unabashed academic excellence, over a qualified teacher with a shtt degree instead?

*rarely* happens, is what I said. I've personally experienced your example, but I was the only non-qualified teacher in the school (private) and I only taught 3 hours a week to 4 students for two terms. And I didn't get the same rate as the quals. (not saying I am brill intellect, btw)

[Si1]

Using lack of attainment as a benchmark for competence has some flaws, I must say.

Never stopped Gordon Brown becoming prime minister

[Si1]

*rarely* happens, is what I said. I've personally experienced your example, but I was the only non-qualified teacher in the school (private) and I only taught 3 hours a week to 4 students for two terms. And I didn't get the same rate as the quals. (not saying I am brill intellect, btw)

Fair point

[Nuggets Mahoney]

You don't need to be academically brilliant to be a teacher, you just need to know the syllabus better than your students. That's (probably) pretty easy, once you've been teaching it for a couple of years.

Of the various teachers I had, I would say that their level of brilliance had virtually nothing to do with how good they were.

Kids are learning magnets. A lot of the time a teacher is 'teaching' their pupils no more than a gardener is 'growing' their plants. If a teacher can't get their behaviour management and learning environment right their academic prowess will count for nothing.

I'm not sure that getting a 3rd says anything, either way, about the recipient's people skills.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Nuggets Mahoney

[bearwithasorehead]

Using lack of attainment as a benchmark for competence has some flaws, I must say.

My three outstanding teachers at school were the three with doctorates.

tricky to make generalisations. I had a biology teaching with doctorate who clearly hated being a teacher - not inspiring. On other hand, I know a physics A level teacher with a PhD who is universally adored by all students.

[bearwithasorehead]

Kids are little learning magnets. A lot of the time a teacher is 'teaching' their pupils no more than a gardener is 'growing' their plants. If a teacher can't get their behaviour management and learning environment right their academic prowess will count for nothing.

I'm not sure that getting a 3rd says anything, either way, about the recipient's people skills.

Top insightful and incisive post!! teaching and academic ability are not necessarily anything to do with each other.

However..... I've come across a lot of teachers who are barely literate and made constant mistakes in written language. This problem is decades old in UK, I fear.

[The Knimbies who say No]

tricky to make generalisations. I had a biology teaching with doctorate who clearly hated being a teacher - not inspiring. On other hand, I know a physics A level teacher with a PhD who is universally adored by all students.

Indeed it is tricky to make generalisations, but saying that thirfs make inherently better teachers is a bit silly imo.

Here's another inconvenient anecdote; the best teachers I had were at University, the vast majority of whom were longtime academics or at least en route to a Phd, and had no teacher training. A few duffers in there for sure but mostly excellent and easily better than school.