Why Don't Crime Deterrents Work?

[little fish]

Addiction overrides clear thinking making deterrents ineffective. The prison system could be accused of enabling existing addictions and producing new addicts. The obvious solution would be rehab within the prisons but rehab success statistics are poor also.

"The problem is that 35% of those in prison have a drug addiction and 6% acquire that addiction once they are in prison, so more come out with an addiction than went in with one."

http://fullfact.org/...g_addicts-29031

Similarly, the DPC found in 2008 that between a third and half of new receptions to prison were estimated to be problem users, equivalent to between 45,000 and 65,000 prisoners in England and Wales.

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[anonguest]

Most of them will lick burglars, while they are taking your stuff!

NOT the ones I've met!

Never mind Pitbulls.....The most dangerous dogs are most likely on the whole, I am hazarding a guess, those well trained and cared for by their devoted owners. One such dedicated and caring owner I know has an otherwise reasonably friendly dog that, on the command of 'Smile', will instantly change in appearance to a crossbreed somewhere between the creature in American Werewolf in London and Zoltan - Hound of Dracula, with teeth bared, snarling and drooling all over the floor! Enough to make you wet yourself on the spot!

I was told not to ask how he responds to the command, "Eat" !!!

[mfp123]

mandatory retraining in my opinion is a better system. some people simply dont know what to do or how to get out of their situation.

it might seem obvious to some, but it isnt at all to others who dont have the same background and environment and cant see the wood from the trees.

counselling and mentoring people is no substitute for actually teaching people how to do things differently.

id say people must do gcses and A-levels when theyre in prison if they dont have qualifications, and offer a small incentive to get time off for passing. its not like theyve got much else to do whilst theyre in there.

theyll come out at least broadening their mind and thinking about stuff, ideas, creativity, logic, if you teach them english, science, maths.

[motch]

I've wondered why metal thieves are not dished out a higher sentence, they end up causing 10's of thousands pounds worth of damage and delays but they end up getting a slap on the wrist and a hundred quid fine or something stupid like that.

[okaycuckoo]

But in any case, there seems to be an assumption that human beings are rational and make rational decisions. This is rather like the assumptions behind homo eonomicus.

I think it would be more true to say that man is not a rational animal but a rationalising animal.

Non of us are Spock in Star Trek. We do what we do and justify it to ourselves.

Deterrents probably work very well on planet Vulcan.

Yeah, I think this is the line taken by Daniel Kahnemann.

This section from Wikipedia seems spot on for financial crime: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterrence_%28legal%29#Effectiveness

[MrPin]

NOT the ones I've met!

Never mind Pitbulls.....The most dangerous dogs are most likely on the whole, I am hazarding a guess, those well trained and cared for by their devoted owners. One such dedicated and caring owner I know has an otherwise reasonably friendly dog that, on the command of 'Smile', will instantly change in appearance to a crossbreed somewhere between the creature in American Werewolf in London and Zoltan - Hound of Dracula, with teeth bared, snarling and drooling all over the floor! Enough to make you wet yourself on the spot!

I was told not to ask how he responds to the command, "Eat" !!!

That sounds like a lovely animal! May I take him for a walk?

[Guest eight]

I've wondered why metal thieves are not dished out a higher sentence, they end up causing 10's of thousands pounds worth of damage and delays but they end up getting a slap on the wrist and a hundred quid fine or something stupid like that.

I think metal thefts that affect the functioning of the infrastructure - particularly the railways - are actually akin to terrorism, and that should be reflected in sentences.

[Niall of the Nine Hostages]

mandatory retraining in my opinion is a better system. some people simply dont know what to do or how to get out of their situation.

it might seem obvious to some, but it isnt at all to others who dont have the same background and environment and cant see the wood from the trees.

counselling and mentoring people is no substitute for actually teaching people how to do things differently.

id say people must do gcses and A-levels when theyre in prison if they dont have qualifications, and offer a small incentive to get time off for passing. its not like theyve got much else to do whilst theyre in there.

theyll come out at least broadening their mind and thinking about stuff, ideas, creativity, logic, if you teach them english, science, maths.

Apparently 20% of the UK adult population is functionally illiterate and a third cannot add up two three-figure numbers.

The prison population is some 85,000. More than three-quarters of them cannot read, write or count to the standard expected of an 11-year-old.

And yet, the rate of reoffending drops from 90% (yes 90%) to – wait for it – 10% if the person leaves prison and goes straight into the world of work.

Why should this bother us? Well, every reoffender whose act lands back inside costs you and me £250,000.

However, the average IQ of the prison population is 13 below the national average of 100. That probably means that quite a lot of the prison population will be limited in what they can achieve educationally.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/may/03/illiteracy-innumeracy-prisons

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6364343.stm

[stormymonday_2011]

Apparently 20% of the UK adult population is functionally illiterate and a third cannot add up two three-figure numbers.

Sadly for us most of those who are not in prison or out on the rob are currently in Parliament.

[davidg]

One motivation for asking the question is the missus is a lawyer and she worked 5 years as a judge and is very much in favour of the death penalty. However in places like China this doesn't seem to deter much crime - maybe they are killing too many innocent people?

Given some of the miscarriages of justice in the UK in the past, even recently, I'm not keen on the death penalty myself. I'd also like only violent offenders to be locked up and everyone else to be on some other form of control or punishment.

[Guest eight]

One motivation for asking the question is the missus is a lawyer and she worked 5 years as a judge and is very much in favour of the death penalty. However in places like China this doesn't seem to deter much crime - maybe they are killing too many innocent people?

Given some of the miscarriages of justice in the UK in the past, even recently, I'm not keen on the death penalty myself. I'd also like only violent offenders to be locked up and everyone else to be on some other form of control or punishment.

It's tough for me because I was very much ideologically opposed to the death penalty. But some recent cases have tried my patience to the extent that I now view it not so much as a deterrent, or even a punishment as such, but more like a cheap and efficient way of dealing with waste.

[Guest eight]

One motivation for asking the question is the missus is a lawyer and she worked 5 years as a judge and is very much in favour of the death penalty. However in places like China this doesn't seem to deter much crime - maybe they are killing too many innocent people?

Given some of the miscarriages of justice in the UK in the past, even recently, I'm not keen on the death penalty myself. I'd also like only violent offenders to be locked up and everyone else to be on some other form of control or punishment.

I can think of barely any crimes that aren't injurious to somebody on some level, "violent" or not. Burgling somebody's house while they're out shopping isn't considered violent but they're not exactly going to be feeling peachy about it for the foreseeable future, same as if you'd punched them in the guts. In fact I'd rather the punch, if I had to choose.

[mfp123]

in terms of reoffending, i think sometimes we should also try to look at things from their point of view.

imagine you cant read or write properly. you have no qualifications. you have a criminal record. and the environment you are in isnt nice and your support network isnt there , youre broadly on your own, and youre sitting in a council flat on your own with no money - what would you do?

how would you get yourself out of that situation right now, the day after or a few weeks after you got out of jail. what the path do you go down?

i think the state partly has to take control, like we do with educating children, in giving them a path and a structure for their future, rather than just let them out and say dont do it again.

the state has to take charge in reintegrating them into society.

[Niall of the Nine Hostages]

in terms of reoffending, i think sometimes we should also try to look at things from their point of view.

imagine you cant read or write properly. you have no qualifications. you have a criminal record. and the environment you are in isnt nice and your support network isnt there , youre broadly on your own, and youre sitting in a council flat on your own with no money - what would you do?

how would you get yourself out of that situation right now, the day after or a few weeks after you got out of jail. what the path do you go down?

i think the state partly has to take control, like we do with educating children, in giving them a path and a structure for their future, rather than just let them out and say dont do it again.

the state has to take charge in reintegrating them into society.

You could say that with the introduction of CRB checks the state actually made it more difficult for ex-offenders to find employment.

But what would that path and structure look like?

[Hectors House]

A few weeks ago a house down the road was broken into during broad daylight, the house had a electric five bar gate was protected by two CCTV cameras, the neighbours were on their patio enjoying lunch and didn't hear or see the burglars breaking into the house next door. The burglars only wanted to nick the Range Rover but smashed up the house including the CCTV unit.

They pushed the five bar gate out of the way with the Range Rover.

The Plod arrived after the event, they said nothing could be done with the broken CCTV unit yet the house owner took it into a local town and was able to rescue both the images and sound. Turns out they were Romanians.

The Plod haven't bothered releasing the photos. Nobody has been caught, arrested, or charged and the Range Rover will probably end up abroad.

2014 is the year when crime figures skyrocket.

[mfp123]

You could say that with the introduction of CRB checks the state actually made it more difficult for ex-offenders to find employment.

But what would that path and structure look like?

definitely schooling, training new skills, apprenticeships. it has to be about teaching and educating. and it has to be mandatory not voluntary.

just being in that environment of being around the right kind of people day in day out will make a big difference.

[MrPin]

I can think of barely any crimes that aren't injurious to somebody on some level, "violent" or not. Burgling somebody's house while they're out shopping isn't considered violent but they're not exactly going to be feeling peachy about it for the foreseeable future, same as if you'd punched them in the guts. In fact I'd rather the punch, if I had to choose.

Being burgled is crap! It happened to me whilst in London!

[StuG III]

in terms of reoffending, i think sometimes we should also try to look at things from their point of view.

imagine you cant read or write properly. you have no qualifications. you have a criminal record. and the environment you are in isnt nice and your support network isnt there , youre broadly on your own, and youre sitting in a council flat on your own with no money - what would you do?

how would you get yourself out of that situation right now, the day after or a few weeks after you got out of jail. what the path do you go down?

i think the state partly has to take control, like we do with educating children, in giving them a path and a structure for their future, rather than just let them out and say dont do it again.

the state has to take charge in reintegrating them into society.

There is that. But then there's the other point of view that they offend because

1. They can

and

2. They dont think they will get caught

and

3. They dont fear their punishment even if they do get caught.

So imagine if you are as you say above. Council house etc. What do you lose by going to prison? Not very much really. Everything will still be there for you when you come out. On the other hand, for someone who has a job and a family, going to prison changes everything. You lose everything. House, job, probably your family too.

So prison is an effective deterrent for "decent" people, but doesn't have much effect against council house scummers.

There are a few reasons for sending someone to prison

1. As a punishment (the central pillar of justice)

2. As a deterrent to others

3. To remove a threat to society

4. To rehabilitate upon release (if released)

At the moment, prison is failing on just about every level apart from temporarily removing a threat to society. And for all that, prison is monumentally expensive.

To make prison effective, we need to re-instate the punishment/deterrent element and make it a place that is feared such that anyone leaving vows to himself or herself that they will never go back in there again. If the prisoner is illiterate then they need to be made to learn.

Personally, I'd like to see corporal punishment re-introduced for a variety of offences and for certain offences in conjunction with a regime of incarceration and education.

Never going to happen though.

[Niall of the Nine Hostages]

If the prisoner is illiterate then they need to be made to learn.

The UK prison population has a an average IQ of 87. That means some of them...well I expect reading and writing would always be beyond them.

[Guest eight]

The UK prison population has a an average IQ of 87. That means some of them...well I expect reading and writing would always be beyond them.

Maybe leave them here and transport the rest of us to Australia?

[Riedquat]

I think metal thefts that affect the functioning of the infrastructure - particularly the railways - are actually akin to terrorism, and that should be reflected in sentences.

There was one a few years ago where they even stole the track (admittedly it was disused).

As to the OP, deterrent really doesn't work? I find that hard to believe since it rather assumes that everyone who commits crimes at the moment are the only people who would ever commit them. It doesn't work 100% of course but that's not the same thing.

[Guest eight]

There was one a few years ago where they even stole the track (admittedly it was disused).

Yeah that was not far from here. They actually recruited the labour from a local pub with ready cash. Says something about unemployment. I don't know what, but something.

[StuG III]

The UK prison population has a an average IQ of 87. That means some of them...well I expect reading and writing would always be beyond them.

IQ is a pretty rough measure of actual intelligence in that your score can increase or decrease depending on how much mental excercise you have been doing.

I'm pretty sure I have dropped a dozen points since the days of differential equations and thermodynamics

[Guest eight]

I'm pretty sure I have dropped a dozen points since the days of differential equations and thermodynamics

Yeah, you've tanked.

[Steppenpig]

Sending them to Australia seemed to work out rather well in the long run.