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davidg

Why Don't Crime Deterrents Work?

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Micheal Howard told us that prison and deterrents work, well maybe they do, up to a point. However over the centuries and across the globe we've had the most appauling deterrents to crime and yet people still break the law. If it is to feed your family you can understand but that is only part of the picture.

So why don't deterrents work for certain classes of criminal?

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If you don't think you're going to get caught then there's no deterrent effect. (edit to add: or a reduced effect if the probability of being caught is low)

If you're mentally incapacitated through mental illness, drink, drugs etc. You dont consider the consequence of your actions so the deterrent has no effect.

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If you don't think you're going to get caught then there's no deterrent effect. (edit to add: or a reduced effect if the probability of being caught is low)

If you're mentally incapacitated through mental illness, drink, drugs etc. You dont consider the consequence of your actions so the deterrent has no effect.

Pretty much. As I've said before, only a few people died trying to get from east Berlin to west berlin because they knew they would almost certainly be shot on the spot, so few tried it. Thousands of people have died trying to get from mexico to america because they know if caught nothing will happen. (the heat still gets them, they still drown, freeze or tunnels collapse though!)

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Pretty much! I am going to do some crimes this evening, and if ! get caught, I will do a few more when I get out again! :o

Edited for speling Mistak! :o

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Micheal Howard told us that prison and deterrents work,

Rhetoric followed by applause and "hear hear".

well maybe they do, up to a point. However over the centuries and across the globe we've had the most appauling deterrents to crime and yet people still break the law. If it is to feed your family you can understand but that is only part of the picture.

So why don't deterrents work for certain classes of criminal?

Well, according to psychopath expert Robert Hare, "In a typical prison population, about 20 percent of the inmates satisfy the Hare definition of a psychopath, but they are responsible for over half of all violent crime. "

Also, many prisoners just aren't very bright:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6364343.stm

Nearly 6,000 British prisoners have low IQs, according to new research by the University of Liverpool

But in any case, there seems to be an assumption that human beings are rational and make rational decisions. This is rather like the assumptions behind homo eonomicus.

I think it would be more true to say that man is not a rational animal but a rationalising animal.

Non of us are Spock in Star Trek. We do what we do and justify it to ourselves.

Deterrents probably work very well on planet Vulcan.

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Rhetoric followed by applause and "hear hear".

Nearly 6,000 British prisoners have low IQs, according to new research by the University of Liverpool

The University of Liverpool, is basically where you "WILL" find a low IQ! :o

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The punishment is too lenient and a lot of criminals will always be criminals. Some grow out of it once they have kids/meet a girl/realise that life is not about always looking over your shoulder. Even the ones that do quieten down are always susceptible to some kind of more accepted criminal activity, knowingly handling stolen goods, opportunistic crime etc.

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a mixture of reasons, some just think they wont get caught, some people dont have a future or cant see a future for themselves, usually no education, and want to make money - they have little to lose. if they had a decent job they wouldn't be committing a crime.

its costs £40,000 per person per year to keep someone in prison. if you paid these people that money, ill bet 90% wouldn't have committed crimes in the first place.

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The punishment is too lenient and a lot of criminals will always be criminals. Some grow out of it once they have kids/meet a girl/realise that life is not about always looking over your shoulder. Even the ones that do quieten down are always susceptible to some kind of more accepted criminal activity, knowingly handling stolen goods, opportunistic crime etc.

I would bet the phenomenon of criminals quietening down as they get older has a lot to do with diminishing testosterone and possibly other similar biological changes.

The huge difference between the numbers of male and female criminals is without doubt a reflection of biology rather than some sort of leniency of the police and courts towards laydeez.

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a mixture of reasons, some just think they wont get caught, some people dont have a future or cant see a future for themselves, usually no education, and want to make money - they have little to lose. if they had a decent job they wouldn't be committing a crime.

its costs £40,000 per person per year to keep someone in prison. if you paid these people that money, ill bet 90% wouldn't have committed crimes in the first place.

I bet a lot of them would blow it all that £40,000 really quickly.

Nobody starves in Britain. Well, apart from neglected kids.

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I would bet the phenomenon of criminals quietening down as they get older has a lot to do with diminishing testosterone and possibly other similar biological changes.

The huge difference between the numbers of male and female criminals is without doubt a reflection of biology rather than some sort of leniency of the police and courts towards laydeez.

Yes, I am older now, and I do fraud, instead of robbery! :lol:

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The University of Liverpool, is basically where you "WILL" find a low IQ! :o

Hahaha. Perhaps they were trying to identify a new market for their services.

Actually, It is a founding member of the Russell Group of large research-intensive universities, the N8 Group for research collaboration and The University Management school is AACSB accredited. The university has produced eight Nobel Prize winners

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Yes, I am older now, and I do fraud, instead of robbery! :lol:

Yeah white collar crime is the place to be.

My father-in-law was a copper and he said they only tended to bang up the stupid criminals. If they had any brains they either wouldn't get caught or they'd be doing some sort of criminal activity where it was difficult to catch people, or if they were caught, their ill gotten gains would afford for them to pay for better lawyers than the crown prosecution service.

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Yeah white collar crime is the place to be.

t :o

Do you have any employment opportunities? I am not exactly "evil", but I am second best!

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t :o

Do you have any employment opportunities? I am not exactly "evil", but I am second best!

just visit your local bank, theyll help you out. borrow up to the hilt, spend it all on shopping then declare yourself bankrupt.

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just visit your local bank, theyll help you out. borrow up to the hilt, spend it all on shopping then declare yourself bankrupt.

"

I need no more shopping! I have been "Blessed!

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a mixture of reasons, some just think they wont get caught, some people dont have a future or cant see a future for themselves, usually no education, and want to make money - they have little to lose. if they had a decent job they wouldn't be committing a crime.

its costs £40,000 per person per year to keep someone in prison. if you paid these people that money, ill bet 90% wouldn't have committed crimes in the first place.

Bloody Hell....would have been cheaper to jail hundreds of criminal bankster fraudsters...would have been much cheaper than bailing them out.

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Guest eight

Micheal Howard told us that prison and deterrents work, well maybe they do, up to a point. However over the centuries and across the globe we've had the most appauling deterrents to crime and yet people still break the law. If it is to feed your family you can understand but that is only part of the picture.

So why don't deterrents work for certain classes of criminal?

I'm a bit squeamish about dispensing criminal justice but it does amaze me that people get released on license, commit exactly the same offence and then get a more lenient sentence than the one they were out on license from. Prolific offenders do seem to identify themselves quite readily, it's these types where I would throw away the key. You read of people with two hundred plus convictions to their name, basically I would happily separate these people from wider society for forty years. Pareto suggests that taking out the most active criminals will have the biggest effect on overall crime.

Deterrents are a bit of a myth I think. But once the deed is done (often repeatedly by the same individual) drastic action needs to be taken.

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Having being burgled around half a dozen times - I've lived in both Bradford and Liverpool! - I'd say that most burglars fit the "too stupid to get a job" definition. So once they've been released from prison, there's only one career option open to them... There's no deterrent.

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Having being burgled around half a dozen times - I've lived in both Bradford and Liverpool! - I'd say that most burglars fit the "too stupid to get a job" definition. So once they've been released from prison, there's only one career option open to them... There's no deterrent.

Christ Almighty you must have nothing left to steal! :blink:

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a mixture of reasons, some just think they wont get caught, some people dont have a future or cant see a future for themselves, usually no education, and want to make money - they have little to lose. if they had a decent job they wouldn't be committing a crime.

its costs £40,000 per person per year to keep someone in prison. if you paid these people that money, ill bet 90% wouldn't have committed crimes in the first place.

On the other hand 1000s of police, prison officers and other public servants would suddenly need to find some kind of productive role in society.

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Having being burgled around half a dozen times - I've lived in both Bradford and Liverpool! - I'd say that most burglars fit the "too stupid to get a job" definition. So once they've been released from prison, there's only one career option open to them... There's no deterrent.

I had a burglar problem at one time, then I invested in a dog.

On one occasion after Mr Burglar had visited, a couple of coppers came around and told me they recognised something about the damage or whatever and were pretty sure they knew who it was - a local crack addict apparently.

So, on this occasion, too stupid to know that drugs like crack are highly addictive and mess people up, as well as probably being too stupid to get a job to pay for his idiotic addiction.

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I had a burglar problem at one time, then I invested in a dog.

Most of them will lick burglars, while they are taking your stuff! :o

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To answer the OP -

crime only is deterred when the chances of being caught are sufficiently high AND the punishment is bad AND the benefits of the crime low. If you want to stop crime you need i) many more police, prosecutors, judges, and courts that the UK is willing to pay for ii) real sentances which the Uk is not willing to pay for and iii) a way of offsetting the benefits of many crimes, which the UK is not willing to see imposed. On that last point, as an example if you evicted HB tenants for a violent crime by any family member, with no obligation to rehouse on the state, offending rates would go down very quickly, but the UK population is not willing to see that.

So, overall, crime deterrents do work but the deterrent is all three factors, not just the punishment bit.

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"But addicts, on the other hand, need to be treated, cared for and encouraged to break the cycle of addiction. They do not need to be criminalised."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/10342626/Leading-police-officer-calls-for-legalisation-of-drugs.html

This is something worth looking into.....to be fair the police and penal system do not have time nor resources to police drugs effectively many of the people that take them having money spent to help them not money to lock them up....treat the causes not the symptoms. ;)

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