Lies, Damn Lies, And The Indie

[wherebee]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brits-see-immigration-as-bigger-issue-than-european-neighbours-study-finds-8827218.html

"It also found that Britons hugely overestimate the number of immigrants in the country - guessing on average that 31 per cent of the population were immigrants when the actual figure is 12 per cent. "

Let me guess how this low figure has been worked out. A person enters the country. They are an immigrant. They get residency. They have 4 children, born here, who qualify for British citizenship and the citizenship of their birth parents country. The 12% figure above only counts 1 person as an 'immigrant', although the 4 children are brought up under non-British religion and culture, schooled in a religious school, and see their birth parents home country as 'home'.

Lies, damn lies, and more damn lies.

and in any case, the article glosses over the fact that more than 10% of a population to be non native is a HUGE issue.

[Frank Hovis]

Whether we still do it I don't know but in the 80s and 90s whilst other European countries were counting as immigrants everybody who was, um, immigrating, British immigration stats just listed the head of the household, ignoring all other fmaily members. It was (?is) a deliberate attempt to understate the figures.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Frank Hovis

[The Ayatollah Buggeri]

It's worth pointing out that The Indie is Russian-owned. Therefore, given the amount of Russian-owned property in London, they have a VI in campaigning for Britain to have as lax an immigration regime as possible.

[pablopatito]

The 12% figure above only counts 1 person as an 'immigrant', although the 4 children are brought up under non-British religion and culture, schooled in a religious school, and see their birth parents home country as 'home'.

Lies, damn lies, and more damn lies.

You got any facts there? Anecdotally, I'd say all my friends with immigrant parents consider themselves British and went to secular schools. Which seems logical to me, if you grow up in Britain, go to a British school, speak English, watch British TV, listen to British music and have British friends why would you feel more at home in, say, Pakistan, a county you've barely been too? Too call them an immigrant would surely be the lie, however much you object to them - many of them have never even been to their "homeland".

I'm sure there are pockets of large cities where cultures don't mix and Somalis live in one area, Pakistanis in another etc etc, London in particular. But I grew up in a boring town in the Midlands, where everyone mixes together and gets on with it. An Asian growing up in Wolverhampton really doesn't have much of a different upbringing to anyone else. I'm sure my experience is more of the norm in the UK, but it doesn't make for exciting reading in the Daily Mail so rarely gets mentioned.

[Frank Hovis]

You got any facts there? Anecdotally, I'd say all my friends with immigrant parents consider themselves British and went to secular schools. Which seems logical to me, if you grow up in Britain, go to a British school, speak English, watch British TV, listen to British music and have British friends why would you feel more at home in, say, Pakistan, a county you've barely been too? Too call them an immigrant would surely be the lie, however much you object to them - many of them have never even been to their "homeland".

I'm sure there are pockets of large cities where cultures don't mix and Somalis live in one area, Pakistanis in another etc etc, London in particular. But I grew up in a boring town in the Midlands, where everyone mixes together and gets on with it. An Asian growing up in Wolverhampton really doesn't have much of a different upbringing to anyone else. I'm sure my experience is more of the norm in the UK, but it doesn't make for exciting reading in the Daily Mail so rarely gets mentioned.

I don't go around checking people's residency papers so if I were to be asked, as in the original Indie poll, how many immigrants there were then my guess would be based around people who are not ethnically British. My answer per the Indie would be "hugely over-estimating" because their definition of an immigrant is somebody who has immigrated in their lifetime.

[tomandlu]

I don't go around checking people's residency papers so if I were to be asked, as in the original Indie poll, how many immigrants there were then my guess would be based around people who are not ethnically British. My answer per the Indie would be "hugely over-estimating" because their definition of an immigrant is somebody who has immigrated in their lifetime.

Then I would suggest that their definition is the correct one. By your standard, a fifth-generation Brit could be classified as an immigrant.

[Frank Hovis]

Then I would suggest that their definition is the correct one. By your standard, a fifth-generation Brit could be classified as an immigrant.

So why ask people the question unless it is propaganda to make people think that immigration is less than it actually is?

[tomandlu]

So why ask people the question unless it is propaganda to make people think that immigration is less than it actually is?

You're making an assumption that most people would perceive the question in the way that you did. I don't know what the motives of the article were, but immigrant, to me, means someone who has personally moved to another country, not their descendants. An immigrant can be white, black, brown. Your definition excludes white immigrants (which must be wrong), but captures anyone who isn't white, no matter how many generations they've been in this country (also wrong).

[polus]

Reminds me of:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/9353439/Why-Tesco-could-teach-No-10-a-thing-or-two.html

[polus]

Reminds me of:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/9353439/Why-Tesco-could-teach-No-10-a-thing-or-two.html

Quick google but my point is about real est. of 80 million due to food stats...

[SarahBell]

Isn't London about 50:50 now?

Just look at the images they use on the bbc news of schools, hospitals, streets... The streets don't look white anymore. Perhaps that's why white british people think immigration is so high.

[GinAndPlatonic]

Then I would suggest that their definition is the correct one. By your standard, a fifth-generation Brit could be classified as an immigrant.

Excellent ...if offspring of immigrants are foreign then half this nation and more are foreign, going back to the vikings (even Norse women gave birth in this country)..unless someone can come up where to draw the line and then suddenly second or third generation children become fully fledged British. any takers on how to decide that one ?

[GinAndPlatonic]

Isn't London about 50:50 now?

Just look at the images they use on the bbc news of schools, hospitals, streets... The streets don't look white anymore. Perhaps that's why white british people think immigration is so high.

Also you would think all NHS hospitals are heaving with Muslim Doctors wearing Niqabs too.!

[wherebee]

Yes, look at the Chinese and Japanese approach. You can live there, become a PR, but you will never be a native. Your kids may or may not depending on whether they are the product of a native and a non native or not. But two whiteys having a kid in china - that kid is never chinese.

[swissy_fit]

Yes, look at the Chinese and Japanese approach. You can live there, become a PR, but you will never be a native. Your kids may or may not depending on whether they are the product of a native and a non native or not. But two whiteys having a kid in china - that kid is never chinese.

And this is a good thing?

What is the point being made by this thread, precisely?

[tomandlu]

What is the point being made by this thread, precisely?

Some people don't understand what the word 'immigrant' means because they think we live in China?

[GinAndPlatonic]

Yes, look at the Chinese and Japanese approach. You can live there, become a PR, but you will never be a native. Your kids may or may not depending on whether they are the product of a native and a non native or not. But two whiteys having a kid in china - that kid is never chinese.

China ? I thought we were discussing UK policies and statistics/lies.

[Frank Hovis]

Some people don't understand what the word 'immigrant' means because they think we live in China?

Well I for one don't live in China. I'd have noticed.

[wherebee]

The point is that the numbers of immigrants into the UK in the past 50 years has been truly exceptional in terms of both headcount and %age of native population, and if this happened in any other country would be the cause of much soul searching by the left wing press and cries of ethnic cleansing might even be made. Yet the media continues to suppress the numbers and statistical analysis, putting a positive spin on it.

The population was never asked, and never voted on this. And it is a contributing factors to a host of negative issues in the UK, including house prices.

That's what narks me off - the fact that the truth is always supressed on this issue.

[pablopatito]

their definition of an immigrant is somebody who has immigrated

Well, erm, yeah, that would be my definition as well. Some people on this thread seem to be confusing the term "immigrant" with "ethnic minority", but I'm not sure why?

[Frank Hovis]

Well, erm, yeah, that would be my definition as well. Some people on this thread seem to be confusing the term "immigrant" with "ethnic minority", but I'm not sure why?

Because that's the general usage of the word.

Papers take the technical terms when it suits them. So recession is a common word, we all think we know what it means, but when it suits them the papers trot out the technical definition of two consecutive quarters of negative growth. So you end up arguing about semantics instead of recognising and doing something about the useless state of the economy.

Same here with the Indie's use of the word "immigrant".

[Executive Sadman]

I guess it depends how you define immigrant. Until the east euro countries came in, most immigration was non-white so its simplest to look at it that way until recently. In 1950 England was basically 99.9% white british and the total population was barely any smaller than the 42,000,000 total white british population today. In other words the population without immigration has barely grown. Now the population is 53,000,000 (officially, god knows what the actual number is). Until 1997 the minority population grew at about 1 -1.5% a decade (97% white in 1971, 95.5% white in 1981, 94% white in 1991). From 1997 it grew at about 10% (including 'white' east europeans, with White british going from 90% in 2001 down to 80% in 2011) Anyone who thinks thats anything other than an unprecedented change in velocity needs their head examined.

[tomandlu]

Because that's the general usage of the word.

...

Same here with the Indie's use of the word "immigrant".

No it isn't and no it isn't. The ability of the press and the politicians to play word-games with 'recession', 'deficit' and 'debt' has no relationship to a very straightforward word like 'immigrant'. The thing you are describing is 'ethnic minority'. To describe people who have been born and raised in the UK as 'immigrants' is just odd.

[Guest eight]

Isn't London about 50:50 now?

Just look at the images they use on the bbc news of schools, hospitals, streets... The streets don't look white anymore. Perhaps that's why white british people think immigration is so high.

Eastenders still defiantly white cockney though.

[swissy_fit]

The point is that the numbers of immigrants into the UK in the past 50 years has been truly exceptional in terms of both headcount and %age of native population, and if this happened in any other country would be the cause of much soul searching by the left wing press and cries of ethnic cleansing might even be made. Yet the media continues to suppress the numbers and statistical analysis, putting a positive spin on it.

The population was never asked, and never voted on this. And it is a contributing factors to a host of negative issues in the UK, including house prices.

That's what narks me off - the fact that the truth is always supressed on this issue.

OK, immigration has been high, it's been in waves in the UK I think, the current wave has been the longest and largest.

This is generally true in most countries that are attractive to economic migrants. Switzerland, where I live (and am, of course, an immigrant) has a very high percentage of immigrants.

Other countries have managed it better than the UK.

To my mind immigration is positive, or should be, the problem is that in the UK our systems are corrupt and/or incompetent and there is no will at the top to manage the country for the general good. The problem is not the immigrants.