Dorkins Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 why do you expect to get £70pw for nothing? It's not something for nothing. As an inhabitant of the UK I have a responsibility to pay taxes when I earn money. Then if at some point I happen to meet certain criteria like unemployment, sickness, or old age I have a right to claim certain benefits. Rights and responsibilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Anyone else here a local employer offered workfare/dole freebie staff BTW? I've two paid staff at the moment. I get the impression Ian Duncan Myth would like me to sack them to make his unemployment stats look better. I know plenty of other stores who have gone down this route, but being as I was signing on myself under 8 years ago I can't quite bring myself to exploit people who have done nothing wrong at the expense of those I already employ. Call me old fashioned like. Mind providing more details on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonkers Posted September 4, 2013 Author Share Posted September 4, 2013 why do you expect to get £70pw for nothing? The point is, it's not for nothing, almost 2 decades of insurance payments in my case. There is a debate to be had about contribution to be sure, but that isn't even close to the dance card, why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damik Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 We've ended up importing the USA's standard operating procedure for pressure groups that call themselves one thing, while being absolutely nothing like what they pretend to be. When you hear of something called "Tax Payers' Alliance" it immediately brings to mind your typical average tax payer, an alliance of them that looks out for the interests of the average tax payer. But it is nothing of the sort. We don't know fully who it's funders are, but 60% of its donations were £5K+. That rules out being run for and by the average taxpayer. A lot of those donations appear to come from wealthy businessmen and from the corporate sector. So the correct name for them should be something like "Alliance of capital and wealthy businessmen". When you think of them that way it's no wonder that this supposed "alliance" supports policies that provide free labour to large corporates. and all the profit from large corporates go to their shareholders. and the largest shareholders are surprise surprise the pension funds ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damik Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 The point is, it's not for nothing, almost 2 decades of insurance payments in my case. There is a debate to be had about contribution to be sure, but that isn't even close to the dance card, why not? yes; you paid NI for 20 years and expect a medal I am taxed almost 70% from all above £42k pa and I will have the same JSA as you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 No I just think the shop owner should maximise profit and fire your relations and get free labour. Nothing wrong with shop work, but you are advocating that shop workers should not get paid to do it and so why not start with your relations. You will never make it as a politician Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquid Goldfish Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 yes; you paid NI for 20 years and expect a medal I am taxed almost 70% from all above £42k pa and I will have the same JSA as you That sounds high - isn't the top rate 45%? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damik Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 No I just think the shop owner should maximise profit and fire your relations and get free labour. Nothing wrong with shop work, but you are advocating that shop workers should not get paid to do it and so why not start with your relations. in normal economies with out asset bubble depressions the unemployment is somewhere around 5%; so only 5% of the labour would be free but I agree with you. we should extend the workforce from shop assistance to let's say making stuff for the state, which is usually imported: furniture, uniforms, etc ... or maybe social care ??? the options are endless ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 yes; you paid NI for 20 years and expect a medal I am taxed almost 70% from all above £42k pa and I will have the same JSA as you 70% ? am i missing something ,have you ever had the indignity of claiming JSA ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damik Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 That sounds high - isn't the top rate 45%? income tax 40% VAT 20% NI council tax fuel, alcohol, fags duties low interest rates on my savings high inflation of house prices, food, energy, transport Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquid Goldfish Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 We've ended up importing the USA's standard operating procedure for pressure groups that call themselves one thing, while being absolutely nothing like what they pretend to be. At least we've not copied the way they name Acts of Congress - e.g.the Repealing the Job-killing Healthcare Law Act Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 yes, both my mother and my mother in law have been punished by working whole their lives as the shop assistants ... punished ... with a big stick ... beaten ... now they have almost same pension as people who have never worked ... you are a clear example why democratic societies collapse aka Greece ... no responsibility, just rights ... Actually your the one who is a clear example of why our society is being run down. You don't make decisions based on data on whether something works or not, on whether it improves the well being of society. Nor do you want our government to do that. Instead you want policies based on your own personal emotions. I don't like that, I don't like what *some* of these unemployed are doing, so punish them is what you basically want. How on earth do you think that's good for our society, to make decisions on how it's run in this way? It's no different than nimbyism, basing policy on personal selfish desires, and we can see the ruin that's causing. So thanks for that. Every little helps as a zero-wage serf in Tesco's would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquid Goldfish Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 in normal economies with out asset bubble depressions the unemployment is somewhere around 5%; so only 5% of the labour would be free but I agree with you. we should extend the workforce from shop assistance to let's say making stuff for the state, which is usually imported: furniture, uniforms, etc ... or maybe social care ??? the options are endless ... From your other posts I'm not quite understanding you feelings towards your elderly relatives - but would you really want them being looked after by someone who is otherwise unemployable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 income tax 40% VAT 20% NI council tax fuel, alcohol, fags duties low interest rates on my savings high inflation of house prices, food, energy, transport Try living on £70 a week and working 30 +hours a week and see how much food enegy fags alcohol petrol that buys you then come back and tell us how wonderful it is All the above apart from NI and council tax are the same for the unemployed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 and all the profit from large corporates go to their shareholders. and the largest shareholders are surprise surprise the pension funds ... Except something like 10% of the population hold about 80% of the UK's financial assets. So in what way does their interests reflect those of the broad mass of people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moneyfornothing Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 yes, sit at home, watch TV and complain that the world is not perfect I am not just sure why do you expect to be paid for it ??? Are you in a public sector job for life per chance .. What sort of work do you do .. What do you get paid .. Curious.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 in normal economies with out asset bubble depressions the unemployment is somewhere around 5%; so only 5% of the labour would be free but I agree with you. we should extend the workforce from shop assistance to let's say making stuff for the state, which is usually imported: furniture, uniforms, etc ... or maybe social care ??? the options are endless ... Jesus.... you honestly believe we should turn 5% of our citizens into forced labour. Why not set up some camps to house them while we are it? And hang up some uplifting moral signs outside them, perhaps? Do you believe in lebensraum too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Are you in a public sector job for life per chance .. What sort of work do you do .. What do you get paid .. Curious.. Well by the looks of it over £42k and you are probably right public sector and they have the hump at having to pay 3% instead of 1.5% towards their final salary pension hard life aint it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 What about a year down the line? Someone who accepted that work placement and demonstrated a positive attitude would be in a far better position to move into a more suitable job role, whereas the guy that chose daytime TV would become unemployable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damik Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Are you in a public sector job for life per chance .. What sort of work do you do .. What do you get paid .. Curious.. nope; large private consultancy - IT architect - 50h per week - projects go always wrong because they are undersold - managing off shore people who are useless - stressed as it is always your fault IT architect in Lodnon can earn betweek £50k to £120k pa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damik Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 (edited) Jesus.... you honestly believe we should turn 5% of our citizens into forced labour. Why not set up some camps to house them while we are it? And hang up some uplifting moral signs outside them, perhaps? Do you believe in lebensraum too? if my mother can work in a shop you will make it as well; do not worry and you should thank me; sitting at home and watching TV / playing xbox is the biggest killer - depression, obesity, alcohol ebuse, etc ... if you have to wake up every day 0500 AM like the working population you will not have a time for this ... you are welcome! Edited September 5, 2013 by Damik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damik Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Try living on £70 a week and working 30 +hours a week and see how much food enegy fags alcohol petrol that buys you then come back and tell us how wonderful it is All the above apart from NI and council tax are the same for the unemployed yes, but you forget I pay to the state in taxes about £5/6k pm to keep you alive and you still do not want to work in a shop ... what is wrong with you ??? working in a shop is normal; sitting at home idle is not normal and I would get the same JSA as you, but I am not complaining Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damik Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 (edited) From your other posts I'm not quite understanding you feelings towards your elderly relatives - but would you really want them being looked after by someone who is otherwise unemployable. OK; making furniture it is; or cleaning up streets; there is no reason to pay private contractors for cleaning if our fellow citizens want to help Edited September 5, 2013 by Damik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron78 Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 (edited) Mind providing more details on this? Not sure I can provide much. It's not offered directly by the job centre, it's offered by A4e and Maximus round here (or rather, subsidiaries of). I wasn't even asked if there was work for them longterm or anything like that, and technically the inquiry wasn't even made through an official channel. What I think people will overlook is that cosy private relationships exist or will be built between employers and local workfare providers - as I say, it was pitched as a something for nothing to me by someone with an attitude only slightly less backward and Victorian than Damek's at a private function. As for other local employers in my area using free labour I can confirm many are, and I can also confirm this has (very obviously) resulted in less people being employed properly at financial cost to the employer and not the state. It's achieving the opposite of what it purports to be achieving in my area at least. The problem is most people who support this have Damek's attitude - you can point out this schemes shortcomings and how it's actually costing them more money (real jobs disappearing, thousands of "their" tax payers money paid to these workfare companies to place state subsidied workers in positions to replace those real jobs) until you're blue in the face - it simply doesn't register on their bizarre moral compass at all. According to them there is no negative to all this free labour - new employers are popping up to pay minimum wage to those the workfare drones replaced. Except they're not. At all. At the rate it's going round here there will be more workfare workers than minimum wagers within 5 years. Business is competitive, and if one employer is lowering theirs costs at the state's expense more will follow. Simple economics really. I may even have to eventually. To be honest, if dum dums like Damek want to pay my workers instead of me, perhaps I should let them? Edited September 5, 2013 by byron78 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damik Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 So you will be telling the shop owner to fire your relations and get some free labour. I am sure that will go down well with the relations .. the job they were doing is not worthy of a wage ... the dignity of working providing self worth and meaning to life... but not getting paid. has it ever occurred to you that if a western economy is OK (no busts) the unemployment is always under 5% what means there is not a fixed amount of jobs; and that new jobs will appear ? have you ever seen that state provided free education, health or policing services create systemic unemployment? no, because it is not the case ... and it is not the case for the workforce as well. simple as that ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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